I would love to just see some real solid rating. I know real manufacturers of 100C capable cells with burst capability of up to 250C, but this technology is a long way from us consumers though. I hope this Hobby comes back to reality soon.

Brian,

There should be a standard and one will come if some poor kid gets hurt because he tried to get 200A+ out of his battery. Who knows, the poor kid might be trying to get his KO Propo to put out 780A. Maybe that guy from California will start a law suit against all this false statements and then we will see some earth like ratings instead of this Alien technology we see coming out. We will then know who to blame for making our Hobby so dangerous with crazy claims. I will back them up by saying, there are still a lot of dumb, uneducated, common senseless people out there who will fall for this and one will only profit from it.

I'll add my $0.02 here...

The prices need to come down, period. If another reputable manufacturers pack of a similar capacity fits my needs and is $60 cheaper, what is the value-add for me to even consider MaxAmps?

Note: Price comparison based on MaxAmps 4S 5250mAh $239.99 vs. Hyperion G3 VX 5500mAh $172.95

+1. The way I see it there are only 2 good reasons: 1) They are a U.S. company and employ U.S. citizens (help our own economy, screw China) and 2) Warranty service. I've used Maxamps packs in the past, and while my experience with the packs themselves was far from enjoyable the warranty service was excellent.

Good to see Austin in here, from my personal experience he's a good guy to deal with.

Austin: Do us all a favor and can Jason, nobody can stand him and I think there are some of us that even hold back on your products because he's the face of Maxamps, the guy we all see on the forums (poorly) representing your company.

I'm all for Maxamps pushing an industry std as long as it makes sense. Many people do not like McDonalds or Walmart, but they are able to have heavy sway and set stds for the industry due to their large influence.

In the end, I think its the only way a std will be set, if one lrg company aggressively pushes it, and the smaller guys jump on board until their is at least a lg plurality of consensus.

There needs to be some fleshed out methodology as Brian suggested (Time, temperature and Vdrop) and the merits of burst ratings can be debated, but overall I think its fine as long as it can be done consistently and reproducibly. It really doesn't matter if the spec is somewhat BS, as long as everyone is measuring their packs on the same BS-o-meter.

The reason maxamps is able to charge such high prices is because they advertise so much. I have nothing against maxamps- although I did have a few of their packs, most of which puffed, but those are older cells so I believe the newer cells may be better. It's also nice to see Austin on here, someone we can actually talk to. I'd like to give maxamps another shot, but the prices are simply too high. Maybe MA should can some of their advertising and make their packs more reasonably priced, having their target market being experienced RC users, rather than noobs.

People buy the cheap crap from WalMart and McDonalds for the same reason people buy Zippy/Turnigy lipos: They're cheap and it does the job. If it lasts 1/2 as long as a pack costing 3x-4x as much it's not really a bad investment (and if you crash and kill the pack you don't lose as much $$$).

yup and there is a good reason why America has such a high trade deficit and US jobs keep going overseas...

The only reason there is not a buy american campaign is that they own $800bn worth of US treasuries and could sink the US if they didn't roll them... but it would be mutual destruction as they'd loose their money...

It is the cold war again but instead of nukes it is trade in plastic junk and the odd bit of lithium...

I for one would like to see this topic continue down a civil and technical discussion rather than seeing remarks as MA customers being "noobs".
And aye, it's hard to compete with zippy/turnigy/rhino batteries with their price to performance ratio. I became a believer after I tried their packs in my CRT.5: 4s 3000mah, 20c battery running a mini jammin with a 1509 and gladiators for wheels. 16T pinion to boot. Battery barely gets warm. Best part is they only cost $27!

Oh wait, forgot to post something useful:
It would be wonderful if a standardized testing method was established. But it's going to take a lot of leverage from an organized and funded group to get something like that rolling. Seems like nationally, ROAR would be the only group that could reasonably require battery quality testing to be done from different ROAR legal packs. And think of what that would do to the cost. It's like putting the government in control of health care.....

The thing that sells me on Zippy besides the price is that for 25% of the cost of more expensive packs, I get equal, and many times longer life spans out of them.

And, lets not forget that Zippy packs are not the only packs from the far East, while MA assembles their packs here, MA cells come from the same region.

Always before and even more in this struggling economy, Price is the #1 selling point of almost any product.

This whole C rating discussion. Continuous C ratings versus Surge Watt Ratings. (or whatever you want to call it)

Much like FET ratings, there is an acceptable amp draw that a pack can sustain throughout the life of it's charge. This is especially useful and required for the fly boys.

Continuous "C" rating is a level of amp draw that the pack can hold a certain voltage at for most of its discharge capacity without damaging or substantially shorting it's cycle life. It is a level of amp draw the does not damage it.

We can talk about how there is no standard if we want to, but it is the rating system that has always been used. Accurate or not, given by the manufacturer or given by the retailer.

We can also argue about how it's not standardized. Weither or not discharging equipment is calibrated the same or variables in the tests were not equal.

How a pack performs all goes back to how it stands up under varying loads and is PROVEN on an accurate discharge graph along with pack temperature readings.

An ESC that is rated for 200 amps continuous can handle 1000 surge amps for 1/2 a second. But they don't rate them for surge. They are rated for continuous duty.

A motors wattage rating is based on how many amps on a given voltage it can sustain without failing. It's efficiency and alot of other things affects the final rating. Even then, the actual application changes the entire scenario. We could talk about airflow, the applications ability to shed the motors heat, or we could talk about the load that's on the motor.

The load that is on the motor will be the most influencial thing about that motors rating. Is it a stable and consistant load? If it varies, then how much? How much starting torque is required? Does it soft start? Or is it required to start under full load and instantly go to 100% as fast as it can?

Sooo many variables in the motor rating scenario. How can we come up with an accurate way to rate batteries using such a wide array of applications and motor types? I don't think that's possible really.

This accuracy would depend on that accuracy........blah... blah. But in the end, if things aren't right, there's at least one more person to point the finger at. It's whoever rated that motor wrong, isn't it?

Lipo technology is still young. It's still developing. In the Marketing world, there's still a race going on.

It's not about marketing or awards. It's about performance and longevity.

In the end, it's not just about who can put the highest number on a pack or a cell. For those of us who are educated and do our research, it's always going to come back to an accurate Discharge Graph.

Instead of pointing fingers and making claims of having the VERY Best Product, why don't we work together to aggree on a rating standard?

But that's a secret isn't it? It would place imbalance in the market as it is now. If everyone is open and honest about their packs and how they perform, then the race would change into a price war. Oh we can't have that, now can we?

As far as "buy American" or "This costs more because we employ Americans", let's hope we all do.

The fact of this is though, All Lipo cells are made overseas. Aren't they?

They are ALL imported. Mostly because of the laws we have passed through the EPA, and how we have a tendency to regulate everything, Especially Chemicals.

In the Engineering World, China is kicking our butts, along with alot of other countries.

So how about it? Can we see some discharge graphs?

Austin, please, you have not answered a single technical question we have asked.

See THIS, why can't MA supply us with a graph like this? Or at least

http://www.flightpower.co.uk/index.asp

or this.

http://www.impaktrc.com/product_info...oducts_id=4546


Just because MA believes 'there is no standard' doesn't mean you can abuse the power/freedom of that, as even mentioning the surge rating WITHOUT even a HINT of a continuous C rating is ridiculous, and really is false advertising to unknowing consumers, namely begineers.

Austin, also, when I said that no one trusts you, I meant to say no one HEAR trust you, at least no one I can think of.

Like Lincpimp said, just because you are 'rated' number one trusted battery manufacture... that doesn't mean ANYTHING, nothing, no thing. Just because religion is wide spread and many ppl believe in it, doesn't make it true. Just because McDonalds is the number one crap-food restaurant in the world, doesn't make it good for you. You guys are big, no doubt, and you guys have alot of influence, no doubt, but again that does not give you the right the advertise that you have the 'best battery in the market today' as you did. I have little doubt that RCaction rated you the best maker because you have the highest paying advertising in there mag.

About the C rating again, you say there is no standard, well there was a resemblance of a standard before you showed up with your '60C best battery on market' lingo. I am not saying that continuous C ratings mean anything - but relatively, they held water with the high end packs such as FP, Hyp, Neu, Polyquest, and the rest of the Enerland based packs. Now, with these new generation packs (G3's, TP PP 40C, Neu 40C's, Fullymax, to name a few) the ratings are consistent as far as I can see; but again, only relatively. You are right that most manufacturers only rate their packs C rating based on SINGLE CELL performance, and obviously a cont. C should change slightly when in a pack... but companies like Hyperion actually state their packs Ri, and not just a single cell multiplied by cells in the pack.

What I would like to see is pack Ri on all batteries, that is basically what it comes down to, isn't it? Ri would be the simplest, shortest way of saying what the performance of pack is. But also, when you increase the cont. C rating, the pack Ri has to go down exponentially, because waste heat is delta V (voltage) X amperage... as you increase the amps, you have to have MUCH higher voltage holding ability, not a linear thing here. Example:

Now I am not an expert by any means about waste battery heat, efficiency and C rating, but this is just my take on it, or what it should be, based on some simple technical characteristics of a lipo battery.

Let's say two given packs from the same brand/manufacturer are at the same state of charge, and both are sitting at the same resting voltage, say 4.0volts.
We have a 20C cont. rated pack, and a 40C cont. rated pack from the same manufacturer, both are 1000mah capacity.

20C pack: @ 20C discharge holds 3.2volts/cell, so 4.0v subtract 3.2v = 0.8v ... multiply that by the amperage, 0.8v X 20 amps = 16watts of heat output.

40C pack: @40C discharge holds 3.6volts/cell, so 4.0v subtract 3.6v = 0.4v ... multiply that by the amperage, 0.4v X 40 amps = 16 watts of heat output.

My point here is when you double the C rating, you need to cut the packs Ri to 1/4 of the previous lipo.

But then along comes another argument, that well at the 40C discharge, that 16 watts of heat is not going to raise the temperature as much as the 20C pack because it's half the time. So what, I think it should be heat output power, period.

All this talk about testing...the only number that matters to me is my laptimes. So long as the product is safe and reliable, I could care less what the little sticker on the outside says. No matter what gets printed, someone somewhere can make claim that it's not accurate or not using the same measurement as others.

The testing I want to see is on the track. Nothing else matters. I don't use my LiPo's in a lab somewhere. I use them out on the track, if they can deliver there (and of course they are safe), they get my stamp of approval.

As for the price issue, if you think the prices are too high there is a very easy fix, don't buy them. It's that simple. Not everyone drives a BMW, not everyone wears designer clothes, not everyone buys name brand pharmaceuticals. Often times premium pricing is premium because the seller can get it! If they can, more power to them.

i want to know what my hard earned money will help MAKE my lap times be. how do you do that? check the data for each battery first. otherwise it's just a shot in the dark. or don't you research what you spend your money on first?

as for the price - if 2 camaros were side by side (if that's what you like) and one was 20 grand cheaper, but the same thing, would you seriously waste the extra 20 grand on the overpriced one? now how about this: if you had a camaro sitting next to a cheap hundai, but the hundai was priced 20 grand more than the camaro, you'd laugh............right?

I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. Without standards, the ratings are largely meaningless. There are no standards. If the product is not up to the task of it's intended purpose, the company selling it would be forced to make good on that and I'm sure they would discontinue it/fix it. I think it's safe to say that the batteries in question can in fact power our vehicles. If it says 25c or 30c or 60c I don't care, as long as it does it's job well, and does so safely. The best way to see what battery will work best in your vehicle is to see what other guys running similar setups are using. Or you can read tests done in the Magazines, or check results from recent races. I feel that name brand companies hardly ever try to fool people into buying their products. Especially not one's who publish their phone number and address as well as their warranty policy.

As for the price issue, I would take the cheaper camaro if they were the same. The trouble is, in the real world they are never the same. The more expensive one may come with a better warranty or better support or something which can justify a price differential. I make purchase decisions based on lots of factors. It's not always as cut and dry as it seems.

I think he's saying as long as it works, he could care less what brand, or the sticker says......

I have heard, that most, if not ALL, of the lipos are coming from China, they distribute to us, we slap a label on em, and ship em off, etc...

And I've heard that why Zippy's are so cheap, is that they ship em to Hong Kong instead to the US, Hong Kong, makes a little profit, and ships em off, as bulk...

So either way, brand over brand, they OVERALL should be the same batteries, coming from the same place, no?

I've seen what their packs can do and it's not pretty. I compared 2 3S 3000mAh packs to my 2 3S 2200mAh packs in the same vehicle and mine put out more power and it still going strong even after some abuse in drag racing. It's only a matter of time they'll realize it's better to be realistic and gain confidence from everyone than to be part of people's jokes which makes them look bad. MA, test your products before putting them out, it'll only make you better in the long run. I would love to get a pack that can hold its voltage better at 20-25C then one a 30-40C that will almost hit my LVC.

i know what he was saying. but 'i don't care, as long as it works' is pretty generic. 2 different packs could work, and work well....but one could give you a 5 second better lap time because it's just a little better. and in some cases, the better ones are cheaper.

with BMW, you get what you pay for. it's a premium price because it's clearly superior in a lot of areas compared to other cars that don't even belong in the same class. and they don't need a 100,000 mile warranty because it's been proven much less will happen in those miles compared to the less expensive cars that have 'better warranties and service'.

If I were to make my own packs, I could make a killing selling at the price Hobbycity sell their packs for. It will always come down to the overhead (all of the Company's expenses) and greed (Profit).

I mostly agree with Dave, and I don't think this thread should be about how Austin should run his business. He can charge whatever he wants to as long as people are willing to pay it.

If you want to discuss that, it would be better to start a thread somewhere else, call him personally, vote with your wallet, or start your own lipo business and not charge so much.

I do wonder if we are getting to a point with lipos that the ratings dont matter so much in order to get the job done. Beyond 20 or 25C, they are going to be good enough for most people as you are still going to buy a batt lrg enough to get a decent runtime. I don't think this was true last year as an overrated pack (ie a 15C actual rated as 25C or so) was a danger to not being able to handle the loads.

OTOH, this is getting to be an advantage to any disreputable companies who may wish to inflate rating to keep up with market stds, knowing that the product will be ok and most people will never really know the difference.

Hence a need for stds and testing, tho I would never just go a by a manufacturers claims for C rating, just as I would never really believe a car companies claims of horse power.

Holy crap guys.. first off even though i have no preference with maxamps- i have not ever owned a pack, no flaming here. guys you have to give Austin the benefit of the doubt, its a real standup act to come to rc-monster and argue his point.

I applaud you Austin!


Anyways.. I run an e-erevo, alongside 2 other fellows that run e revos, they keep up just fine but i have seen a set of packs puff and get all mushy in a truck. dont know if it was setup or not. Just an observation

As for testing and ratings. I would like to the following

Constant C- The C rating at which the battery holds 3.5v under load...

what ever C discharge amperage in which the batter can hold a minimum voltage of 3.5v per cell at a set starting temerature.

Burst C- Should be whatever C rating the battery can sustain for 10 seconds without the battery puffing or increasing temperature by a set temp (lets say 15 degrees)


Would be something that can be tested and be standard and it is something that most battery manufacturers are capable of doing.


time to start a petition...

I agree, I was going to stay out of this thread, but wanted to also give Austin some credit for even coming on here, to argue for his point, though I have not bought any MA packs, due to the cost, and with this great economic, or money downfall, will have to wait a long while before I get the chance to try these out.

Post your feelings on standardized testing here:
http://rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22596

this was the comparison i liked,

Maxamps 5250 5S 18.5V = $300
Hyperion g3 5s 5000 18.5v= $160

why buy one overpriced pack with a warranty that you know will fail when you can buy to excellent packs and they wont crap out on you.

Electricdave, "as long as it does it's job well, and does so safely."

What is that supposed to mean? I notice that you use Enerland packs, so aren't you buying higher quality packs for more money? No doubt they will do the job good and do so safely, an Enerland pack has been the most reliable pack up until now.

You say that not everyone drives a BMW, well, traditionally MA packs are a Ford Taurus with a BMW price tag (priced the same as the high end packs), and they were crap, didn't perform, and would have one of the highest failure rates in the market (aside for some ebay packs maybe)... and now with these latest packs, $250!!! Where is the data showing it's worth 50% more than a Hyperion G3 pack, which I know to be of excellent quality. MA has traditionally not MATCHED their packs, which is a big no no, and they still don't say they match them yet.

Who knows maybe MA packs now are the best on the market, but from what I have seen, there is no reason to believe so. They aren't providing us with any data or objective evidence to substantiate their claims that "It will maintain higher voltage under load than any other lipo battery pack on the market." and "Highest performance in the industry".

Austin says Maxamps has the least the prove of all battery companies, well, around here anyways, they have the most to prove... and they make statements like best battery on market because they have nothing to lose.

I too wish to give Austin credit. It can't be easy to come here knowing full well what kind of abuse he will get.

Threads like this can easily get out of hand with flames (some posts are already coming very close), but as long as we stick to constructive posts, the thread will stay open as far as I'm concerned. Debating points is acceptable, saying "MA sucks" (or similar) is not.

Thanks for all of your input. Frankly it would not be fair for me to pick and choose from your concerns, questions, and negative opinions.

In general, the bigger you become as a company, the bigger the target is on your back. I use to really take this stuff personally but have grown beyond that. I realize that some of your posts are valid concerns but most are just someone on the other end of the computer with no recourse for lying about or bashing on our company. In fact, on several occasions I have found out that the "customer" who was bashing on us in a forum was actually a competitor trying to tear us down.

Most of the guys are stating their opinions as facts. Kinda like us stating that our packs are the best, its all an opinion. We can use our opinion as marketing and I really do believe that we offer the best packs on the market.

Brian- Stating that our packs are "crap", "don't perform", have the "highest failure rates" is basically saying that "MaxAmps sucks." Lets call a spade a spade and at least admit that what is happening in this thread is "bashing".

I have not seen one single person who is posting here who can actually give me a specific example of a problem that they have had with our pack quality, customer service, or company. If I missed one, feel free to call me personally about your specific experience and I will do whatever it takes to make it right.

One final note-

It is really hard to find customers who have had a bad experience with a company who is just starting up or with a brand new product on the market. Even if the failure rate is 50%, if you have not sold any of them, then you would not be able to find any failed packs or upset customers.

I see all of the "lipo manufacturer of the week" threads. Then a few people actually use the packs and the real story starts to come out a few months later. This is not our first rodeo, we have been around for much longer than most of the companies that you are all referring to.

I have tested lots of cells that look great in the first 15-30 cycles and then become worthless. Finding a cell with a balance of voltage under load and cycle life is much harder than you think. Some companies will sell a bunch of packs and then be out of business around the time you need warranty work.

I know that it is fun for some guys to bash on the "man". Just remember that "the man" is a real person and try to treat them the same way that you would want to be treated when you are "the man".

If any of you have actual constructive criticism regarding our company, I would love to hear from you personally. Our toll free number is 888-654-4450. I will personally take your call, hear you out, and address your concerns. People seem much nicer over the phone than they do behind the shield of a keyboard and a computer.

It is also very easy for a guy who can not afford our packs to bash them. Rather than just admitting that he can't afford the packs, he tells everyone that his cheap packs are just as good.

When I was in middle school my mom bought me the cheap K Mart "Spot Built" basketball shoes since that is all she could afford. Instead of telling everyone that, I told everyone that my shoes where imported from France and where "French Nikes". The problem was that I had to explain why they left white streaks on the gym floor while the USA Nike shoes did not:)

Best Regards,

Austin Else
CEO MaxAmps.com

I can afford MA packs and still own 2, I will never buy another because I can get the same qaulity or exceed it in my Zippy/Rhino packs. I have 4s and 5s Zippys that already have well over 100 cycles and they still balance perfectly or within 1-2 10ths and at a
FRACTION OF THE COST
I club race and bash heavily w/Zippys and have yet to be let down like I have with a couple of the MA packs I had that puffed or wouldn't balance Running in the exact same set up?
All stats and testing aside I've ben let down buy MA and haven't with the Zips. So go figure who's getting my $$, especially if I can buy twice the batterys for the same price.

Very Simple, Direct Question.

Can we see a discharge graph for a Maxamps 60C pack?

Are you referring to me? I don't believe I said MA packs are "crap", what I have said is that there is excessive voltage drop at much lower than the rated C rate. And I have commented about construction.

One example? How about three:

1: 2s1p 5Ah pack: Even in a light vehicle (~6lbs) geared for ~40mph, the pack got too hot for my liking (130*F at the end of the run) and I feared their life life would be shortened. This is from day 1. At the time, I did not have an accurate way to measure real current draw, but my runtime was right around 35 minutes. That's at 8.6A average current. Pretty high temp for the gentle use IMO. Since then, I've reconfigured two of those 2s packs into a single 4s pack for use in a low kv motor setup (Trx Slash) on 4s to reduce current and keep heat to a minimum.


2: And while on the topic of that 4s 5Ah pack, let's talk performance. Since I reconfigured the pack, I acquired an Eagletree logger and have an actual graph that shows the highest burst value of 61A (which is 12.2C) while the pack voltage fell to 12.48v (3.12v/cell). And here is the graph if you like:

http://scriptasylum.com/forumpics/ma...000mah_20c.jpg


3: I have some 2s2p 8Ah packs. They worked ok in a Hyper8 buggy configured as 4s (saddle packs) with a Neu 1512/2d. Since then I redid the setup and wanted a single 4s2p pack, so I proceeded to take apart the pack to reconfigure it. The tabs used were substantially thinner than any other pack I have taken apart. I was able to seperate the tabs of the "2p" cell pairs by hand, and without trying hard at all. That's not a solid solder job by anyone's standards. And, after bending the tab once, they started to tear. I ended up throwing that pack out. I still have the other 2s2p 8Ah pack, but I won't touch it.


Is that detailed enough?

Thanks for posting Austin, and btw, "Brian- Stating that our packs are "crap", "don't perform", have the "highest failure rates" is basically saying that "MaxAmps sucks." Lets call a spade a spade and at least admit that what is happening in this thread is "bashing"." That was me, not Brian who said that... I may have sounded like I was bashing, but that was not my intention, so I'm sorry you felt that way. :smile:

Also, if you want to prove your companies product here, would you be willing to donate one of your packs for testing? Is this not the simplest way to go about doing it, the cheapest way? I know that none here will buy one of those packs right now, until we have seen some absolute beyond the shadow of a doubt data we can observe and make a decision based on that. Because, I will admit, the remarks that have been made about MA have been a bit excessive, or slightly exaggerated to make a point on this thread, and it has got us nowhere fast.

So what do you say Austin, willing to donate a tester pack?

Like I said earlier. If you have specific concerns, feel free to call me personally.

Posting a graph of a pack that we have not offered for sale for at least a year(5000mah 20C) is not really addressing the current question of our new method of rating the current packs.

I am having a flashback of why I stopped trying to have constructive conversation here on RCM.

Thanks for the feedback.

Best Regards,

Austin

I really was trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but franklysir, that is an absolute cop-out.

Pick one and address it, not that difficult.

Good day.

No, of course it's not neccessarily representative of current generation packs, but you asked for examples. And it illustrates why some are hesitant based on prior experience. And, it would be tough to post a graph of cells using the new method since they are fairly new.

And what is not constructive? Very few people are actually trashing your product. Most are posting real world experiences. This attitude doesn't come from nowhere.

Look, I was willing to keep it civil, but when you put words in my mouth, be prepared for the response.

If you wish to discuss this 1:1, PM me.

He austin Today, How do you measure and rate your packs. with what rating systems etc. testing enviornment.

I would also like to see a graph of the 60c cells

Yeah, thnat was over the line, not even I woulod say something quite that offensive.

That said, now he's gone and made Brian angry, and I've never seen that before..

Ignoring questions about how packs/cells are actually rated, and requests for some graphes (most other companies have graphes to show customers), just makes it look like Maxamps doesnt want to answer questions on its products to alleiviate our fears; prove the packs really are 'the best on the market' with some graphes or Eagletree runs compared to similar setups with other packs, and then we can judge for ourselves & make an imformed buying decision.

If you dont prove the packs are worth the money, we wont buy them (well, the traxxas kiddies and magazine readers will- advertising does work wonders it seems), simple really.

I would like to refer people to one of my previous posts- you can see a 35c cell only performing at 28c in a nice graph....

I didnt want to start on this but I gotta add my "REALWORLD EXPERIENCE". And NO I am not some other company trashing you because I want to sell my stuff over yours.

I saw you state that if you puff the pack and your were drawing under ther rated current you will replace the pack under warranty... Yet you charge extra for the warranty and the full cost of the pack is not warrantied.

Needless to say I dont have anymore MA packs not because I dont like them and just threw them out but because they ALL failed. (PUFF)

Yet to puff ANY zippies in the same setups, with a lower MAH batt but same 20C rating. (oh sorry I forgot that is meaningless)

If you believe so highly in your product show a graph!:whip:

:whistle:

I'm just wondering if Brian purchased the 3 year warranty with the packs showing in the graph?

If so, wouldn't these still fall under the "umbrella" of support?

In regards to the first paragraph I bold-faced above - I can give you plenty of first hand experience of maxamps failures, as I have owned about 20 of your packs. Now these were older cells, and given my experience your newer packs do have better cells and have performed closer to their claims. Alot of us here have plenty of experience with maxamps packs, some good, but alot bad. I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, and I will not bore you with my experiences. Suffice to say I do believe that Enerland and their 25c series are much more robust and are of better design and construction quality than the maxamps cells that I have personally inspected. Just my observation. Since you are not a regular on this forum you have missed out the countless issues the members here have had with various products, maxamps included. Many of us have spent considerable money buying and replacing lipos. General consensus is that enerland was the best bet for a pack that did not fail prematurely and accurately held to its specs. Nothing is 100%, but enerland seems to have the best QC or whatever it takes to make a cell right the first time and make it last.

As far as the second paragraph that I bold-faced - I have plenty of money, and have bought alot of stuff based on claims and recommendations. The reason I post here is that I have tried alot of stuff and feel a bit obliged to help people who do not have the money to test until they find something that works. This segment of the hobby is in uncharted waters for the vast majority of people, and some sort of advise is almost a requirement to wade through all of the BS. If I thought maxamps packs were really good, but too expensive, I would gladly say that, cause some people just want the best. However if your packs are comparable in quality to another brand that is half the price, well I have to say that as well. You guys do more advertising that anyone else in the business, that money has to come from somewhere. And while you provide a warranty (Not sure if Jason does but I have dealt with you personally for warranty concerns) I would prefer to buy a pack that does not need that warranty.

My personal experience is that I have put alot of packs through a fair amount of abuse, and maxamps did not end up on top. So for people like me "the proof is in the pudding" and your business model lacks the "pudding" (discharge graphs and comparison data).

I do like the French Nike story, shows that you have a quick wit, even at a young age. I do not wish you any ill will Austin, and I hope maxamps makes its way to being an "industry leader".