You have a better grasp of the English language than I have so if you say it's a moped then it's a moped. But I'm still saying scooter :tongue:. Here's a link to E-Ride in Vancouver, Canada. Dealer of Motorino E-motorcycles, E-scooters, E-bikes, E-skateboards and other stuff. I looked at, and tried THIS model and THIS model. I also liked the vintage look of THIS model. They're kind of fun to ride on and comfortable.

I was thinking about the multi-speed concept and wondered why an "electronic transmission" couldn't be used?

Option 1: Have separate wires for both ends of each motor coil (similar to how the old hi-amp LMTs were set up). Then, the ESC could electrically configure the motor for Y wind at low speed and D wind for higher speeds. The switchover would result in a 1.73x change in kv.

Option 2: Have the motor wound in whatever way it is (probably Y), but bring out a couple extra "tap" for each coil. Then, the ESC could power individual taps, resulting in different kvs.

Either way, more wires will need to be brought out of the motor. This increases weight, but that should be offset by the gains from the mechanical friction and weight of an actual transmission. Also, the ESC would be more complex.

Well it's done, the minivan was gone on Monday and I bought a Motorino XPn electric scooter today. I should get it Tuesday morning. The color is black cherry which is a new color that is not on their website yet. I bought a helmet with matching color. I can't wait to start riding around town with this thing. I feel good about it.
This thing runs on deep cycle lead acid batteries, it will be interesting to see if it can be upgraded to A123 cells or something like that. I think I will have a couple T-shirts done with this on the back. Or maybe make a small one from sticky vinyl on my wife's Cricut machine and stick it on the back of my helmet.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w..._pass_gas1.jpg

I'm gonna go hug a tree now.

Awesome man!

Specs????
 

OK well share some specs with us about your purchase. How much did it cost you? How fast does it go? How far will it go on one charge? What is the operating voltage of this system? Share some pics when you get it.

Here's some specifications taken from their website. Once I get the scooter, I am probably going to spend some time finding exactly what the batteries are, what's written on the ESC/control module or whatever they call it and find if there's some info about the hub motor. The price is 2299.00 CDN. The extra battery was 250.00. The website says, 32 kph max but there's a plug/limiter that is easily taken out to have a max speed of 45 kph. They claim up to 90 km on one charge but this will vary a lot depending on the terrain and the weight of the rider. I'm 225 and the city I live in has hills everywhere so I'll find out soon enough how far I'll go.

Motorino XPn. Its vintage body styling and robust motorcycle chassis are both supplied by Yamaha - China; offering a solid, stable and comfortable ride. Its powerful headlight, large gauges and chrome trim create a vintage aesthetic reminiscent of the 2010 Yamaha Vino. Unlike its Yamaha counterpart its longer wheelbase and ergonomic seat can comfortably carry two riders, even up hills; and is well proportioned for taller and shorter riders.

Specifications:

Dimensions & Weight:
without battery: 68kg
with battery:90kg
Loading capacity: 120kg
Carton dimensions: 169 x 39 x 109cm

Power System:
500W 48V oversized high torque CCT brushless regenerative motor
Max torque –66 Nm
Motor consumption: 1000W/H per 100km
Motor Controller: CCT power controlled, CCT regenerative
Battery - 48V 20AH SLAVR and 48V/14AH*
Battery capacity: 1056Wh/1768Wh*
Battery protection: Low voltage cut off protection
Charger: 2.8A Battery Maintenance Charger (BMC), output DC 53V
Charging: through 48V terminal on board
Charging time: 4-7 hrs with standard
and 2-4 hrs with rapid charger*
DC/DC 48/12V 10A converter
12V/10A cigarette lighter plug*
Circuit protection: automatic breaker

Tires & Wheels:
Rim: 10” aluminum motorcycle grade
Tires: All weather 3.5” x 16” - motorcycle grade DOT approved 8 layers with ABS protective shield

Brakes:
Mechanical: front and rear hydraulic disk brakes with ABS (Anti-Lock Braking system)
Electric: front and rear regenerative
Body & Chassis

Colors: Black, Blue, Red, White
Shell: Composite ABS with two coats epoxy paint
Frame: Motorcyclegrade high tensile steel frame
Hydraulic front suspension, 2 shock absorbers per wheel
Safety: Side mirrors, front and back turn signals, tail and brake lights, horn

Security:
Built-in motorcycle remote alarm with two remote controls
Lock on under seat storage from ignition key
Handlebar locking
Standard Features

Lights: Head – high/low beam, direction lights, tail, brake - 12V bulbs
Side Mirrors
Dashboard indicators: speedometer, battery capacity indicator, turn signals indicators
Pedals: Clip type
Seat : Double seat 82cm above ground
Storage: under the seat and rear box

Accessories included:
Built in remote vibration sensitive alarm with two remote controls
Rain cape – poncho type with hood and window for head light
Rain cover for the bike
Tubeless tire repair kit

Performance:
50km to 90km* range based on flat and 75kg (165 lbs) load**
32 km/hr based on flat and 80kg load

A little reading on their CCT drive system (People who are knowledgeable about brushless motors should like reading this)
http://www.motorino.ca/cct_driving_system.php

It's got antilock braking
http://www.motorino.ca/ABS_Braking_system.php

The scooter also has a 12V outlet to plug your cell phone, a laptop or a coffee maker :mdr: Or the included 12V air compressor to fix a flat tire. The tires are tubeless so they include a kit with plugs to fix the tire on the go and re-inflate with the compressor. The scooter also has a cup holder :yes: :mdr: And a puncho style rain coat that covers the rider and part of the scooter.

Finally some reading on the manufacturing of the Motorino motorcycles and scooters.

MOTORINO™ is a Canadian brand (trade mark registration number TMA737780)of electric motorcycles, scooters and bicycles. All models have been partially or completely designed by Greenwit Technologies Inc. More than thirty different models of Motorino scooters and bicycles have been introduced to the North American market since 2002.

Some suppliers are content to browse Asian markets for the most suitable bikes and motors, while Greenwit has taken a proactive role-designing new electrical & mechanical parts from high quality materials to cope with lackluster performance from stock parts. In 2008, after two years of design work, Greenwit developed a new driving system for their MOTORINO electric scooters which revolutionized their performance. The new CCT power train made possible for scooters limited to 500W for Canada to have the same performance as 50CC gasoline motorcycle. This system features a specially designed controller with a micro chip estimating the gravity resistance and a motor that with a flip of a three positions switch can independently extend your range, improve your climbing ability or increase your speed when switched to an economy, high torque or high speed mode. This world beating Canadian designed MOTORINO motor and its controller are manufactured in Taiwan to the strictest quality controls. The electric power trains are then sent to an ISO 9002 certified motorcycle assembly factory where all MOTORINO electric scooters & motorcycles are assembled according the specifications of SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) for motorcycles under the supervision of Greenwit reps.

Following are some talking points regarding performance and quality

Performance
CCT controllers found on all XP and BTr models allow for independent control of speed and torque- this affords Motorino bikes their famed acceleration and climbing power without increasing the battery consumption.
Greenwit motors employ a custom cross winding pattern and oversized neodymium magnets- providing the best torque to be found in a 500W motor.
Powerful regenerative brakes increase range, while almost eliminating the need for mechanical braking.
Long range – 50-60km with a single battery and up to 90km with dual batteries.

Durability reliability and quality
Our scooters are assembled by ISO9002 certified motorcycle manufacturers. Therefore our frames are designated by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and made with carbon steel, used in the automotive industry. The welding work is tested under dynamic pressure.
The body is made from heavy duty motorcycle grade composite ABS material, painted with UV resistant paint and coated with an epoxy scratch resistant clear coat.
All switches, connectors, harness, light sockets, brakes, tires, lights, cables, etc. are DOT approved, and manufactured by motorcycle component factories.
When units are on the production line the work is supervised by an independent observer. Every single unit that is in production has a passport containing information for every single screw installed. When finished the scooters are tested on simulated road and all components are checked. Before packing a government officer from the National Inspection board randomly tests 20% of the production.
5. All MOTORINO™ bicycles are built with high quality components in compliance with the European standard EN 15194, which strictly monitors the quality of 36 key components on the bicycle.

Safety
All MOTORINO XP models have a very powerful and efficient CCT regenerative magnetic brake.
All MOTORINO XP models are equipped with hydraulic front and rear DOT automotive disk brakes with ABS (Anti-lock Braking System)
All XP models have 3.5" and 4.0" DOT approved motorcycle tubeless tires.
All Motorino scooters are equipped with halogen high/low beam headlights, taillights, brake lights, signal lights, horn and reflectors

Design and variety
All Motorino XP frames and bodies were initially engineered as gas motorcycles. These years of evolution made them practical, durable and aesthetic means of transportation.
We carry a variety of scooter type bikes that are suitable for two or one persons.
Support
Motorino scooters are the most popular brand of electric scooter in North America. They are sold and serviced from more than 30 dealers in Canada and USA.
We keep a substantial inventory of all body and electrical parts for all the models we sell.
Professional technical service is available on the phone for Motorino customers and dealers.
All models have detailed users manuals. Repair manuals are available for all Motorino dealers.

Reading back on the specifications and features of this scooter, this thing is very well built with top quality materials and has some innovative technology that I might not want to mess around with trying to get more speed out of it. If I could get confirmation that the system running on 48V could actually handle up to like 60V then it would just be a matter of making a more powerful battery but I doubt it would be that simple.

I got my Motorino scooter last Tuesday. It's fun to ride around town on this thing. The thing is pretty torquey and easily goes up to 45 kph. I can reach 50 kph with the wind at my back. And up to 60 kph going downhill :mdr:
There's one very steep hill that the scooter struggled with so I'll just avoid that one. I can go around it using other streets.
Here's a few pics of it in the messy garage. I took a body panel off to show the system that makes it work. Not much to look at regarding the motor. There's nothing written on it except for the company that manufactures it.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...h_scooter3.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...h_scooter4.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...h_scooter1.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...h_scooter2.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...th_system3.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...th_system1.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...th_system2.jpg http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...th_system4.jpg

Great scooter man.

Thanks. I think it makes me look like a dork riding on it but I like it anyway. I do wish that the system would be good for up to 60 volts. :yes: That would get me up to 60 kph. But no worries, I'm already getting used to putter around at 45.

I used to feel the same way when I was a kid riding around on my moped sometimes. I'm 31 now though, and I want it back! To convert to brushless of course!:lol:

Well today I went out for a ride, just for fun and I guess that if I look like a dork, I don't care anymore because I ride the scooter just because it's fun. Converting an old moped to brushless would be a cool project. If there's enough room, put the lipos inside the gas tank and change the gas cap for a charging jack :yes: And put blue flames somewhere to make it go faster.

Thats the spirit! I miss riding and have considered getting a big scooter instead of an even bigger, heavier motorcycle because I don't care about speed (60mph cruise is fine) or how I look. Its about the ride for me.

i have wanted to get a kawasaki eliminator 125cc cruiser bike for running errands. it is a really low powered motorcycle, but it gets 95mpg and it would be a little cooler than a moped IMO.

New license plate.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w.../th_plate1.jpg

And by the way, I never apologized to BrianG for high jacking his thread. I'm sorry Brian.

Awesome plate man! :lol:

40 km on a fully charged 48 volt 20 amp sealed lead acid battery. It took 7 hours to fully recharge from completely empty. I want to ad the optional 48 volt 14 amp second battery to get more run time. 48 volts 34 amps.... I'm going to need a faster charger than the 2.8 amp one they included with the scooter.

Yea those chargers suck. When I run rc with my nephew I usually bring my Hyperion charger just so I can charge up the batteries in his razor scooter.

The dealer does sell a more powerful charge that goes to 4 amps. They call it their fast charger :oh: I'd like something that would go up to like 20 amps and charge the two batteries in less than 4 hours. The only problem is cost, the chargers I found on the web are a bit pricey and I spent enough already on this scooter.

This one looks interesting and the price is reasonable.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fast-Charger-Cha...#ht_2419wt_906

The only thing that bugs me is the charging jack on the scooter. It's a three prong thing exactly like the power cord of a computer. There must be one for positive and one for negative but what is the third one for. Opening up the rear fairings and seat of the scooter to see the battery and look at the wiring looks like a tedious job. I'll ask the dealer later this morning as I have to go see them to pick my second battery.

Ground?
 

How about Postitive, Negative, and Ground maybe? You can buy those connectors and make your own cord. They are pretty simple to figure out. When I made my first one I think I googled the plug configuration to make sure that I connected the leads on the right position. The center one is the ground. Fast charging lead acid batteries on a regular basis is not a good idea. Plus fast charging lead acid cells creates a lot of hydrogen gas which is explosive. You really have to be careful when charging lead acid batteries.

Hmmm... A lot of hydrogen building up in my garage is not what I want. Guess I'll just have to be patient while the batteries recharge. I pulled the plug out to see where the wires go, only the two outside prongs are used, a positive and a negative. The middle prong is unused. I was just wondering why those connectors were used. Probably because they are foolproof and can't be connected the wrong way. Thanks JERRY.

Most of the time, when a device uses a 3-prong plug on a 120v circuit, it is because the device has a metal casing; the ground connection is tied to the ground plug so that if the "hot" wire were to internally come loose and touch the case, the case would float hot which would trip the breaker. Incidentally, the white "neutral" wire on house wiring is electrically the same point as the ground wire - they both go to their respective bus bars at the panel, which are tied to ground.

Some devices are more flexible and can run on an input voltage from 120v to 240v. If on 240v the two main prongs are both "hot" while the ground is the only ground and still tied to the case for protection. There might be even more to it, but it's been a while since I've even looked at an NEC book.

Mistercrash; I would say that if you want faster charge times, invest in a LiFe setup that has close to the same voltage along with a BMS circuit to make sure the cells stay in balance. Then, you can charge MUCH higher, but you'll likely need a real 240v feed in your garage to keep input current manageable. Charging a ~50v 40Ah pack @ even 2C will require ~4700w (with charger efficiency figured in), which is almost 40A at 120V, but "only" 20A @ 240v.

I use a Hyperion EOS0615i duo3+ to charge my nine 6s 5ah Turnigy lipos in a little over 2 hours. It's powered by two server power supplies in a series. The charger puts out 600W charging at 15A.

A big Hyperion charger might be a good choice for you because you could use it for both your scooter and RC needs.

If anyone's interested, here's link to my thread with some kill-a-watt & Hyperion charger data/pics - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...26364&start=30

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...h_DSCN0654.jpg

Going to the dealer to get my second battery today, I talked a bit with the girls about future battery chemistry that could be used in the scooter. (I like talking to these two girls running the shop, they're hot) They told me that Motorino has been doing a lot of R&D with LiFe cells and that it looks promising for a near future. If they are satisfied with their results, all their scooter will be using LiFe batteries in the future. It is already an upgrade available on their electric motorcycles. They have been getting 75+ km range on their testing compared to the present 40 km with the lead acid. Unfortunately, it looks like the price of the scooters using LiFe batteries will go up significantly. And it would be an expensive upgrade for people like me who already have a scooter using lead acid batteries.

Presently, with 34 amps available in my scooter, I can expect 70+ km range. The lead acids are heavy but they are placed quite low in the frame which sets the scooter's CG quite low and helps very much with handling. The scooter is just a blast to ride on. If the LiFe batteries are much lighter, it would mess with that low CG and the scooter might not handle as well. Time will tell if it will be a viable upgrade or not.

lol, just add some lead ballast to get the same weight as with the SLAs. :smile:

Maybe I could gain 30 pounds. No that wouldn't be good, the CG would be too high. Anyway, I get your point, I'm thinking too much again lol

once you get the second battery, do you think you will need more than one charge a day?

Just plug her in at night and don't worry about charge time. I assume the charger shuts itself off when complete?

What the heck is a kilometer?:na:

I will not need to recharge more than once a day if I just go to work with it. I go to work (2 km) than come back home for lunch (2 km) then after lunch I go downtown for the second part of my shift (6 km) and when I'm all done I go home from downtown (6 km). I probably could go three days before recharging. But I don't just go to work, I work evenings which gives me time in the morning to run errands or just ride around for fun. If I do that, I'll just have to keep in mind that I need to keep enough charge in the batteries for the 22 km needed for my work. One kilometer is 0.6213712 mile. :smile:

Don't. SLA's develop sulfate if below a full charge. You want to keep them 100% charged as much as possible. If you forget a night it's not the end of the world, but definitely charge it the next night. I've been maintaining SLA's for 9 years in my wheelchairs:intello:

Is it an onboard charger? Can you plug in while at work?

It's not an onboard charger. And yes I prefer to recharge every day once I'm done with the scooter. Actually, as soon as I get it back in the garage, I always recharge it even if I just went out for 5 minutes.

I was just wondering if it's a good idea to convert a human-powered bike to a hybrid electric vehicle by putting one of those hub motors on the front wheel. That would avoid any problems with the width of gears... but maybe there are some downsides with front wheel drive?

Front wheel drive is fine but you can run into traction problems, especially when it's wet out or you have a lot of power. And you can't do wheelies. :smile:

Also, mounting is sometimes a slight issue in the front too because the metal the fork is made of is often weaker than in the rear, requiring a stronger torque arm.

all that was needed:yes:

A little update on my experience with the Motorino scooter. I like it even more than I thought I would. I use it everyday to go to work or run errands, rain or shine. I have a ''Wike'' trailer to sit the kids in and pull behind a bicycle that I used before when my son was smaller. Pretty much like this one but it's an older model that is all yellow. I fits on the scooter so now I have something that can haul bigger and heavier stuff like if I need to get some groceries. I still don't know what the range is, I think I could ride the thing until my butt hurts before the batteries go dead. I have over 260 klicks done up to now trekking around town, top speed is mostly at 45/47 kph (for Harold that's 28/29 mph). Going up a steep hill, the speed goes down to 30/32 kph and going down that same hill I hit 60 :yipi:

I was told that the scooter is built using a Yamaha frame. I searched a little and I'm pretty sure they use a Yamaha Vino 125 and convert it to electric.

1350 km now on my scooter and the only thing that gave me problems was the speedometer cable broke. They changed it immediately with no charge. I re-positioned the second battery in front of the main one under the seat compartment so I have plenty of storage under the seat now. I tested the range one day and I barely got 45 km from the 48V 34ah SLAs I'm running now. I was disappointed in that, I was hoping for at least 60 km.
I joined Endless Sphere to get ideas on what I could do to improve the performance. There's not much that can be done with what's on the scooter now but I did build up the shunts with plenty of tin which gave a bit more grunt going uphill but no change on top speed. Next step would be to rewire the batteries with 8 gauge wires and the phase wires with 10 gauge. No small task and I will wait to do this when I won't be using the scooter on a daily basis which will be when there's snow in the streets.
Other then that, not much I can do unless I invest a couple grand to change the motor, the controller and the batteries. The batteries being the most expensive of the upgrades. This is what I'm thinking of.

Controller
http://kellycontroller.com/kbl481012...egen-p-54.html

Motor (high torque model)
http://kellycontroller.com/hub-motor...ake-p-162.html

Batteries (two of them to have 60 amps)
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/t...LiFePO4/Detail

I plan on getting a first LiFePO4 battery at the end of October when the weather gets colder. SLAs don't do well in the cold. Right there this battery should give much better performance then the SLAs, longer range and it weighs 50 pounds less.

If I get the funds to upgrade with a second LiFePO4, a new controller and a 1500 watts high torque motor, I should be getting top speeds of close to 55 km/h which is enough to keep up with the traffic but not enough to get speeding tickets. The main advantage will be in torque. Faster starts off the line and sustained speeds going uphill. The system could run on just one LiFePO4 I linked above but I learned on Endless Sphere that having more battery capacity than you have motor as it relates to KW puts less strain on the battery.

Yeah man, a lithium pack is a really good upgrade! If the pings don't have enough punch you could always get some lipo!

Money
 

For the kind of money you are thinking of investing I personally would rather spend my cash on the A123 nanotech cells (Link below). More bang for the buck if you ask me. More power, better configuration choices, lite weight, and you can work with them to have a custom pack made just for your project. I have been considering an A123 custom pack myself for an E-bike project, and now you have me thinking about a scooter. It seems more affordable to find a good used scooter CHEAP and then do this conversion like you are considering. Live and learn I guess. This is why I like reading about things like this on our forum. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.


http://www.a123systems.com/products-...pouch-cell.htm

Ping batteries are made with prismatic cells. Now are they the same ones as you linked I couldn't tell. The ping batteries also come with a Battery Management System built in and are sold with matching charger. Most people I've seen that wrote about their experience with Ping Batteries is positive. Good product at a reasonable price and very good customer service. There are other options for already made batteries out there, even better quality but for double or triple the price. I can build a battery, I've done it countless times. I just don't want to play with that kind of voltage and amps.

E-Bike projects are great and so are E-Bikes. But for me, I realized that it was just that, a bike. I thought something that is more sturdy like a small motorcycle would be better for me. So I looked into scooters. I really don't regret my choice, it rides really well, it feels solid on the road and people see you a little better. If you're going to put a lot of mileage on a two wheeled electric vehicle, might as well be a scooter or a small motorcycle. There's quite a few that like to convert 250cc motorcycles and they can be found used real cheap. But they do spend months building them and they spend quite a bit of money also. Depending on how well they built it, they might have to tinker on it every weekend to fix things that failed. I don't have the time or energy to do that. I wanted something already made with a warranty and that's what I got and it is serving me very well. In October, I will have reimbursed myself the price I paid for that scooter with what I saved not using or even having a car.

I can understand a little bit why electric vehicles never took off because of many political reasons shall I say. There are a lot of filthy rich companies that would go down real fast if tomorrow, just half of the world's car users would switch to an electric vehicle like a scooter or E-bike. Now that I got used to do things with a scooter instead of a car, I don't miss not having a car. That may change this winter but we'll see, I'm holding my grounds here! BIG OIL COMPANIES CAN KISS MY BUTTery! Maybe I should put that on a T-Shirt.

A123
 

A123 prismatic cells look very similar to Lipo cells in general. The thing I like about A123 batteries is that they can package whatever configuration you want and make it look very much like a small lead acid car battery. The packaging looks very professional and you can work a package with charger and battery management system built into the pack. Yea building packs is not all that hard, but I agree with you about working with voltages that high is kind of dangerous and I would avoid it if possible. Thats just me.

I also agree with you about the construction of a scooter compared to an E-bike, and the scooter would offer a much safer ride for sure. Whether you are seen or not depends on traffic conditions, weather, and what you wear when you ride. I would even go as far as to change the horn and put something with a little more throaty sound. Most car drivers would never even hear a scooter horn. Good luck with your conversion/upgrade and keep us posted.

Still using my scooter everyday to go to work and run some errands even though the temps are falling to the low 50s. With a good parka, good gloves and a small tuque under the helmet, no problem. Bring on the cold. I'm at 2250 km on the scooter and other than the usual maintenance like checking tire air pressure, wheel nuts for tightness and a little lubing here and there, no problems or failures to report. I wish I could talk about some upgrades I did like better batteries or controller or motor but I'm still running the thing pretty much stock. We decided not to wait to have the driveway done so that's where the money went and the family car needs new winter tires so the ''scooter modding fund'' is at zero :oops: Oh well, it still gets me there, just a little slower than I wish. On a more positive note, by running the scooter exclusively all summer, it has now paid for itself with what was saved not having a car. :yipi: