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I do have a house alarm, but rarely set it when we're home. The wife tends to forget it's on and it goes into alarm when she lets the dog outside in the morning. I do have motion lights outside (which reminds me; I have to replace one of the burned out bulbs). No CCTV though. As far as a family break-in plan is concerned, it goes like this: 1) someone hears something suspicious, 2) they wake me up to take care of it, 3) end of plan. So anyway, sometime this weekend I plan on visiting a couple gun shops and seeing what they have. I just didn't want to rely on their advice seeing as how all they want is to sell something. At least now, I have some solid points of interest to go on. |
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cmac: As far as the laser, I wasn't saying rely solely on it, more along the lines of add it to the system if you want the additional features/benefits. Absolutely be prepared to operate with or without it. Anything can malfunction, the laser, the weapon itself. You always need to have a backup plan. |
Are us southerners the only ones that know our NFA stuff? :lol:
As for what kind of loads to use Birdshot is very effective in CCB. Most instances you will be less than 10' away from an attacker and I can tell you for sure that a 1 oz load of birdshot will kill someone just as dead as buckshot. As for over penetration 00 Buck will pass through several walls in a house with ease. I keep my 870 loaded with #7 shot which is what I use for skeet. I also use Glaser's in my .357 Mag and Corbon personal defense loads in my Kel Tec Sub 2000, Although I have a 35 round mag (it's a taurus mag I modified to fit my S&W maged Sub)that is full of FMJ ammo right next to it. Jeff |
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Murderer on the loose
Normally I don't like the idea of guns in the house with kids. I remember the stupid shit I. id. Otoh, we have a gunmen loose behind our house, and it gives you a bad feeling knowing you are way out gunned.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...128554078.html Helis have been flying over the house since 5-6am. The hurricane took out the power and the phones are down. The gunman is a soldier who shot his family and has shot at a bunch of police. Bad bad bad. Don't want to be stuck in the house in the dark tonite while some killer is outside and all I got is two small kids, two old dogs, and a knife and bat.... |
So I went to a local store (Scheels) and took a look around. They have a pretty decent selection and even have a "home defense" shotgun section. My two favorites for simplicity and price was a Remington 870 Express (http://www.remington.com/products/fi...c-7-round.aspx) and a similar Mossberg. Personally, the Remington had an overall better feel and had less play in the mechanisms.
But then I started thinking; if I have a gun in the house for defense, it obviously has to be readily accessible during emergencies, but it also should not be accessible to curious kids. Those two criteria are mutually exclusive, are they not? How can I have the firearm ready to use quickly, yet safely put away? This is probably the biggest argument my wife has against firearms in general. If I can answer this question, I think she'd be much more apt to allow it. I could put the proverbial foot down and say I'm getting one and that's that, but I have to live with her, so I'd like to find a more persuasive argument. Until then, I'm stuck potentially bringing a bat to a gunfight if an armed intruder does break in. |
I just started working for a company called parabellum armament and they have this
http://www.parabellumarmament.com/pasite/defender.htm In the works. Sounds like it would be perfect for what you need. Still a prototype but very cool IMHO. Other than that a nice safe with a keycode lock or a lock and key is the only thing quick really. A bit expensive though. |
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also, i agree with j57ltr about using bird shot for ammo. that's what i have loaded in my 12 guage and its very effective and doesn't penetrate as much, which is always nice when shooting indoors:lol: |
Well, they found the guy dead just down the rd about a mile away... Least I can sleep tonite.
I was thinking about this thread this am, and that was I was wondering Brian. I have a shotgun I keep.at my father's house. I was thinking it would have been nice to have. Otoh, wth do I do w. it all day? The alert has been out for 12hrs. I'm trying to clean up and settle kids down etc. Am I just walking around with it all day and nite? Strap it to my back as I'm hooking up the sump pump to a battle backup? Doing the dishes? Cleaning out the gutters.? Just sit in front of the door waiting and freaking my kids out over someone who will likely never come? Idk. They are a good idea but its hard to see actually taking a shot @ someone. Just. Freaked out today.... |
Well, i don't have any kids, so i can't offer anything on that front. I don't know how old your kids are and i know accidents do happen, but usually it is kids that their parents didn't properly educate them about guns who have been involved in gun related accidents. People who know nothing about guns are more likely to harm themselves with one. This is just like if people didn't teach their kids to know that speeding cars are dangerous and to look both ways and listen before crossing the road; there would be many more children being hit by cars. I think the best thing would obviously be a safe that has a keypad would be fairly easy to get open in a hurry; rack a round, safety off, and boom. Next thing would be a trigger lock. Another thing would be to practice speed loading so that you could possibly keep ammo in a seperate place until needed and load it on the fly. If you close your bedroom door upon hearing a threat, you should have plenty of time to load. Another thing is that if your arent old enough to learn about guns then they most likely can't operate a shotgun either as long as you keep the chamber empty and closed. Also because of the slide safety on a Mossberg it is a little harder to throw off safety than the 870, albeit not enough to depend on that safety feature only. One other thing, although a rifle or pistol takes more practice to be good at hitting your target, it has the advantage of having a seperate magazine which greatly increases how fast you can load the weapon, which means you can keep the mag in a seperat e place.
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well brian, if you lose the battle with the wife, those knifes i posted will go clean through an entire turkey bones and all in one chopping motion if you put a little force behind it. as we all know, cutting off a safety off and loading a clip puts you at a major disadvantage when the would be robber is already locked and loaded. also... lunging in a hallway could put you clean through the perpetrator given the weight and point on those knifes. a bat can't do that.
you could still keep a gun safe across the room or a small one under the bed for added security. the knifes would just bridge the gap between those possible critical moments. perp downstairs... get the gun. perp in the room... grab and swing high. :D having the extra option may just give you that leverage with the wife as well. you could possibly convince her that this way the guns will stay put away. |
Just buy the gun, you wife couldnt be mad forever. Make a deal with her, you can buy the gun and she can buy the whole Oprah series box set on DVD.
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Had to remove this link as it was wayyyy NSFW.
-BrianG |
Proper education is the key and you don't have to leave the gun laying next to the bed to be effective. Your kids know not to touch the hot stove or play with knives. The idea and end result is the same, education and safety. I grew up with guns in my house as a child and knew where they were. I also knew not to touch them and why. My kids are taught the same. In fact if my 5 year old happens to see my gun and I am not right there he immediately comes and tells me.
Having kids is just not a good argument for not having protection. The other side of the coin is that you can't always control every aspect of where your kids will be and what they will find at someone else's house. It's not like you do a full interview with all your kid's friends' parents to see if they own guns. Better your kids know and understand than to come up on it naively. Kids who are never around and have not been educated about guns are far more likely to be curious when the see one somewhere. Knowing only what they see on TV they will not take the magnitude of handling one as seriously as a kid who grows up around them and is properly educated. The actual statistics of children being injured or killed by guns in peoples homes is very small. Be careful when looking through statistics because they do not accurately differentiate street violence gun deaths from accidental deaths in homes. Many activists try to falsely make it seem as though the deaths are happening by accident while in reality they are not. |
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And I know I was told not to touch the stove sometime before I did it. Maybe that was why I wanted to do it, because I was told not to. Just sayin.....kids don't always listen to parents. |
I agree with both you guys TBH; let experience be a lesson. However, a lesson involving a gun has much more potential to be lethal than any of those examples (although a knife can be close).
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I'm right there with ya, I wish kids could be reliably taught that guns are unsafe. But kids are kids...They don't have the thinking capacity yet to comprehend dangerous things unless they remember it hurting or being unpleasant. I know when I have kids all the firearms will be in a safe, the very least they will have breach locks on them.
That's one thing you could get, a breach lock for the shotgun, keep it loaded, and have the key in a good spot close. You could have the lock off quickly and you'd just have to close the breach to get a shell in the chamber. Still slightly cumbersome...but better than having a loaded gun laying around. |
The Segia-12 is mag fed shotgun based on the AK's action if you want a 12ga. semi with a detachable magazine also.
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Being said, if my parents said not to do it, it was usually an invitation to do it. Had plenty of friends who had guns in the home and a family far less careful than mine. Kids love to show off when parents are not around, and we always knew where things were hidden or how to get into safes or other things our parents had no clue about. Everyone was smart enough not to point them at anyone or go around pulling the triggers, but we did enough stupid things that I can look back on it now and think, "man, we were a bunch of little dumbasses..." We didn't get the guns out other than a couple times, but we certainly set fire to, shot, burnt, blew up, broke in to, or stole the keys to plenty of stuff we should have never touched in the first place. With the murderer on the loose yesterday as an example, I would have felt ~10% safer if I had the shotgun at home. And that was in a situation that was: in the daytime, known person and armaments outside, and already photo ID'd by news reports, and with the police in the area for quick backup. Basically had as good as intel and advantage as I was ever likely to get. What was the counter-worry was, where would the guy come in, would he just start shooting or try to take hostages? Would I be able to attack him in time, and if my attack failed, would he attack my family in revenge or to "eliminate witnesses." Where do I keep my kids that would be safe from stray bullets? What If I thought someone was coming in, but what if it was just my mother-in-law coming over to check in and couldn't call first bc the phones were down? The guy was in the military and far better trained, so the only chance I'd have would be surprize, so gotta be the first to shoot. Would I actually want to pull the trigger on something I'm not 100% about? Two of the big rules for hunting was know your target before you shoot, and never point the gun at something you didn't intend on killing. Any of the times we were out hunting, when you did see something and went to shoot, nerves get all jumpy, your heart starts pounding and it always took quite a bit of effort and experience to be able to calm yourself and act with control (and get off a decently aimed shot.) And that was just shooting at birds, in the daytime, in the middle of nowhere and the birds dont shoot back or sue your ass if you just wound them. Contrast that to a possible break-in. Maybe a noise downstairs in the middle of the night. Maybe even the daytime when you're not expecting it. Do you really carry around a loaded gun everytime something goes bump? Are you ready to pull the trigger on some noisy shadow, or to do wait to turn on all the lights and yell and look at the person before you pump off rounds (and give yourself away)? Honestly, what made me feel the safest was knowing all the doors were secure and I had dogs with me. I think I'd rather have a couple of baddass dogs and a bat than my shotty. Let them figure wtf it was and attack and I'll just club the mf'er as they are bitting him. Does make me consider the security of a couple of the doors and windows we have tho. Not trying to push any particular policy or course of action. Just convey a particular real-life experience. I totally understand why someone would want a gun for self-defense. I'm just saying it not cut and dry, or as obvious as having a good lock on the door. Guns will escalate the situation to lethal levels and its not guaranteed to go your way, and not all situations are sneaking downstairs to catch a crackhead with your TV in his hands and you get the chance to blow him away before he can act, and the police come over, offer thier congrats and everyone just goes back to life as normal and there are no reprocussions after. Choose carefully. |
Get the shotgun and hang it high on the wall where you can just barely reach it and don't keep anything around for the kids to use as a step stool to get to it. However if you do get a gun I recomend teaching your kids about it and taking them with you to a range to shoot it. Although they may be far to young to actualy learn to use it and fire it let them see how loud it is and how much damage it can do. Growing up there where guns in my house and my brother and I both left them alone. There was no gunsafe until I was old enough to start my own collection and then my step mom thought that a safe would be a good idea for so many guns. I had a key to it though. First step to gun safety is gun education
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Wow this was a great thread, glad I hopped on to do some reading.
I never saw a huge advantage of buying a really high quality shotgun (those ones costing over a grand), a shotgun does some serious damage at close range, doesn't seem to matter about quality. But, if you get a really cheap one, it may not be reliable, and since you are looking at home defense, you need that more than anything (why many people use revolvers for home defense, not much can go wrong with them). The models in this thread are good choices. My dad had a shotgun in the house when I grew up, for some reason, that was something he told us NOT TO TOUCH, and we never touched it, and mind you, it wasn't locked up. He didn't keep shells in it, and even knowing that, we never touched it. As I got older, I realized that it seemed silly to not keep the shells near the gun, or IN the gun, and I asked him why, and he said he worried about one of us touching it and having an accident. So, this while keeping us safe, would be useless if someone was in the home trying to harm us. Unless he had time to get to the shells, fumble around with them, load the gun, pump, shoot, etc. So then you are left with a handgun as an option. I have a pistol still, I used to have two when I shot a lot with my dad. I kept one just to keep in the house, and to go shooting every now and again. Handguns are easier to hide if you have kids in the house, and you can even go as far as to keep the magazine full of rounds, but don't chamber it, so there's one more element of safety for a child that could get his hands on it (tough to figure out, tough to chamber a round). There are handgun bullets that are mini-shotgun shells. They don't penetrate as deeply and are good for that close-up kind of defense shooting, you don't have to worry about blowing a hole through the wall and hitting someone two rooms down the hall. Quick Google search - http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/64455-5.html. They aren't as great as a hollowpoint for a total stop, but do scatter to help you hit your target. Like others have said, absolutely practice with whatever you choose to go with. Being in a bad situation is a lot different than plinking at cans out in a field. And also as noted through the thread, the law seems to help protect criminals anymore. I've heard that not keeping your gun locked in a safe will be touted as "Aggressive" or "Gun Nut" in a court, almost like you were waiting to take a shot on someone's life. I'm not sure if there's any truth to it, I never looked into it, but I could see something like that being done in an attempt to make someone else seem innocent. But then again, it's your home, you can defend it within reason. Killing someone that is about to run out the door isn't within reason obviously, your life isn't in immediate danger. There's something really intimidating about hearing a shotgun being loaded, so I vote shotgun and keeping it up high away from the kids. Stress to stay away, etc. I also vote to get a dog if you don't have one, they are great alarm companies and can buy you time. Also of note - i don't have kids in my house, so am just relaying an opinion. 10k |
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http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b5...525/shotty.jpg |
Just to apply some objective thinking...
Seems that actual incidents where anyones home(s) have actually been 'invaded' are still quite rare (or only a few bothered to respond to my question) & nobody has used a gun to repel an intruder either. Therefore it would make sense that a gun (or multiples of) is only required in a very small number of examples...?Personally, gun storage is a profound concern for me. I remember being a kid pretty well...I remember that I knew every combination, lock & method of getting into everything my family owned. I remember removing window panes or picking locks to see presents before they were given (& to act surprised when they were given) to me. I remember feeling like nothing was out of reach....considering this, I can confidently say that if we had a gun in our house, it could have been locked to a cloud or rainbow & I would have provided myself access to it within one day tops Not that I have any right to dictate how anyone should handle their personal responsibilities but I'd be concerned about a gun in my house, more so with kids - my kids especially....my 6yr old son hacked an internet account & bought himself about $500 worth of games a few weeks ago. In my view, the probability of someone being hurt by 'my' gun is higher than the chance of using for its intended purpose Also, a family friend arrived at his secluded country property to find it being robbed...he went to his shed & grabbed a rifle & bailed up the intruders next to the van they were filling up. He didn't realise that while he had two under gun point, a third who was inside saw what was happening, circled around behind our friend & blew his head of at the neck from behind...the police think there was three intruders because there were two silhouettes in the blood spatter + one to pull the trigger. He may have had a different result if he hadn't of 'set the pace' by using his gun first?? |
I can also come up with stories of people who saved lives. It's an imperfect world, however I want to at least give myself the chance versus sitting there thinking "only if I had a gun".
Just because something is rare doesn't mean I won't protect myself against it. I also think people should spend less time worrying about how others choose to live when it affects them in no way what so ever. For the record, bear attacks are very rare. However, my group of friends and family who fish in Alaska still carry protection against bear attacks. If someone breaks into my house tying them up won't be an issue because I have no intention of tying up corpses. As far as kids, everyone I knew growing up and my whole family had guns. There was never a single incident of anyone I knew getting into them because our parents had properly educated us. I was a naturally curious and mischievous kid and still never got into anyone's guns. Some of you act like your kids go around sticking their fingers into light sockets and dancing on the hot stove top. I touched the stove because I was taught it was hot, I didn't play with knives because I knew they would cut you, I didn't ride my bike into the street because I knew a car could hit and kill me. In fact, if you look at numbers many more people are killed accidentally this way than by guns in the house. If you don't think you can properly educate and exercise your authority over your children then by all means don't have guns in your house. However, don't try to exercise your will on those of us who do. |
Well said TexasSP; also, it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it ;-) As a kid as was dropped off and left at a hunter's safety class to learn more about guns than my parents had taught me because kids tend to listen to people with cool uniforms and badges better.
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there's also no way you can deny that if you have a kitchen, you have sharp knifes the children have unfettered access to. the argument about a sharp knife is useless if you've ever actually prepared a home cooked meal for your children. now, i see no reason not to have a firearm ready in the home as a secondary or third tier form of home defense. i do, however see absolutely nothing logical or intelligent about having it readily accessible and fire-able at a moments notice with the exception that it's put away correctly. if it's locked in a proper safe, you're simply not getting to it in a timely manner. no other way around it. this introduces the necessity for a primary means of protection. thinking a bat is sufficient is laughable as far as i'm concerned, but the right knife could certainly bridge that gap between "there's a perp downstairs" and "there's a perp in the room". as far as i'm concerned, given the nature of the beast and the curiosity of a child at any age what-so-ever, anyone who thinks they can train the curiosity out of their children to the point any child isn't eventually going to handle their readily accessible firearm when they're not aware is completely delusional. my grand daddy grew up in a home with access and lived through it... but he certainly has stories of when he played. same thing with my pop and my uncle. same with mom. same with my brother and i. we all knew not to fire them, but something could have happened at any time. heck... it took my brother 22 years before he decided to do what he did. nobody, and i mean absolutely nobody would have even entertained the thought that what he did was even remotely possible at that point... but it happened... and now he's gone because of it. so... yeah... brian... i completely understand your stance and actually agree that honest citizens should be armed or the criminals have the upper hand. but i think in a home with children of any age (8 - 80) should have not only the children trained and knowledgeable, but have tiers to it's defense strategy. it should start with either a good alarm system or slightly lethal and readily accessible in the event lethal is the purpose and move up to a fire safe that's nearly un-crackable that harbors anything you choose short of nuclear war heads. just don't go picking up something you need a push rod and black powder for. :lol: i know what you do is your choice and this is simply my opinion, but by all means... think sincerely of the children first... and your right and/or possible need to bare arms second. |
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You can be pissed all you want, but anyone over the age of 2 should realize making claims like you have over the internet is stupid. Especially when you haven't been here long enough to lend any kind of real credibility to yourself. As far as home alarms go, they are only good for alerting the home owner. Any law enforcement officer will tell you home alarms are always lowest priority. My alarm was on when my house got robbed several months back, the sheriff's department was on site 45 minutes later. |
i'm not pissed at all. call bs all you want. i'm a grown man with witnesses to all of those accounts, not some 14 yr old finally let loose behind a keyboard. either way, your response is exactly what i expected of you since it's the same as mine would be. i can respect that.
you are absolutely correct about the home security. notice i didn't mention silent alarm. as far as i'm concerned, there's 2 main reasons for home security. one is the loud alarming sound they're capable of. the second is that they're capable of alerting the authorities faster than a sleeping homeowner in the event of a fire when a couple minutes can be critical. in this instance they can startle and possibly scare away some would be robbers while buying billy bad ass who thinks a gun solves everything the needed time to lock and load. there's no difference between billy bad ass that thinks a gun solves his troubles and billy bad ass who thinks he can do without it. in this case, i'm not buying it either. |
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Firstly I respect everyone's opinion be it pro or against guns. Bellow is just my opinion and how I think on the subject.
I love guns but would never have one loaded under my pillow or carry on me as protection. In fact if someone broke into my house to rob me or mugg me in the street with a gun, first thing I would say is "Take what ever you want man. Here is my wallet too". I think that pulling a gun on someone who has a gun already in their hands would not play out well. Thats why I don't think of guns as much of a defense. It still only gives you a 50-50 chance that you will come out on top. I rather let them have what they want and hopefully they will leave. At least that is the way I hope it would play out. As far as kids safety I can't imagine having a gun that isn't locked up in my house with kids around. Thats just me but if anyone else feels comfortable with it then go for it. Your house, your gun and your kid. Who am I to tell you how to look after either one of them? Something to lighten the mood [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpLd0WQKCY&feature=related[/YOUTUBE] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpLd...eature=related |
Just so everyone understands my guns don't sit in the open where anyone can just grab hold. They are secured and I will leave it at that. No one should leave their guns unsecured period.
PBO, my issue is constant legislation. We have people trying to have laws passed where the government can take their kids if they're over weight. People are trying to constantly lobby to have laws passed to control actions of others. It has gotten out of control. I am a person that wants less government no matter which side is in charge. I don't trust anyone with ultimate power and control. |
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Besides, all the gun control fights were done in the 90's. There hasn't been any serious federal legislation in a long time. No one is really pushing to reinstate the assault weapons ban, we've had a lot of high profile mass shootings and no action as come out of it. Even a member of Congress was shot in the head and nobody really pushed for any new laws. There were some grumblings about limiting the size of handgun clips, but even that was pretty well squashed by the Democratic leadership and no bills were ever even crafted for a vote. Fighting about gun control and who got blown where were luxuries of another era where such trivialities were the biggest problems we had. Times are different, and I know the D's want no part of starting the fight again with the R's. I think we can point to extremists on both sides who want to pass all sorts of Big Brother laws, but no one is really listening to them nor have a credible plan to get something passed. But that's really beside the matter... And just so everyone understands, I didn't get the guns out a bunch of times. (Well maybe the BB guns quite a bit...) It was still one or two more times than I'd ever want my kids getting into them, no matter their training. Our training just taught us how to do stupid stuff more safely. Point was me and most my friends got into all sorts of trouble doing things we knew damn well we shouldn't have been doing and most of the time our parents had no clue. I don't think I was exceptionally sneaky or clever about it. I fully expect my kids to be in all sorts of stuff they'll try to get away with as they get older. For me, the cost/benefit just doesn't add up, but everyone's got to make thier own choice |
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I live in Australia's wonderful state of Victoria which is know as being a "Nanny state". There is always some public servant or politician trying to tell us how we should live. It really pisses me off beyond words sometimes so I know where you are coming from. Also just like you mentioned about overweight kids, we had a similar thing happen here. There was a lot of talk about it and even talk of charging parents with child neglect. WTF? If they brought something in like that when I was a kid they would have locked my parents up and thrown away the key. I was almost as wide as I was tall and my head was almost always inside the fridge. LOL. |
Glad I don't have kids, bought the wife a walther p22 a couple years ago, she loves it. Great pistol for a beginner, now she wants a ppk.
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