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-   -   Bad news for future MM users. (https://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7638)

entjoles 09.10.2007 06:37 PM

well i got my esc. about 1 1/2 months ago and it works fine:yes:, got luckey i guess, i just wonder why the newer ones dont work??

any way guess i will be running novak next season:yipi:

hopefully it has a little more grunt, thats all it needs compared to the hv 4.5 that i have(had , its smoked right now:lol:)

lutach 09.10.2007 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovakTwo (Post 117577)
I think items designed and produced by individuals for these niche markets are a wonderfull way to go. Novak was a garage/kitchen table operation for quite a few years in the seventies---it was in the right place, at the right time, with the right resources. That's how new companies are born.

Little guys with no payrolls or overhead can take the chances that larger companies can no longer risk. After all, Novak has about 45 employees, who expect to be paid on a regular basis! Best wishes to Lutach and Griffin-RU---it's interesting to see what inventors can come up with. There is some guy in Thailand who has stacked Novak power boards---we can't read the copy, though, because it's in Thai....

At heart, Bob Novak has always been a "tinkerer" and, if you could see his office, you would know that his heart is still in tinkering. We just wish he worked a bit faster! Fortunately, Adnan has taken over the electronic and motor design for @ the last 20 years.

The whole brushless technology revolution is exciting for electric R/C cars---if the industry can be revived, BL will do it. Nitro RTRs have really taken a huge share of the market. Maybe BL 1/8th scale products can help revive electric and bring back some of the excitement.

If Novak comes out with a system that will fulfill our requirements which is good for most 1/8 racers and bashers, I'll buy one. Just make a sensored system that handles up to 10 or 12S lipos and design a 2 and 4 poles motor to fit the bill. It should be easy for you guys. Now if you say it is not easy, then I guess there is some trouble within the company. Castle seems to be having their fare share of troubles. I know CC has engineers and I'm pretty sure Novak does as well. Put them to work. Novak makes a profit on current products and why not use some of the profit to design new products. It might not be a big gamble if you listen to us users. Now if you guys at Novak need help procuring the electronic components, for a price I can share my secrete.

Happywing 09.10.2007 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovakTwo (Post 117493)
You probably shouldn't bring up "passion" for the R/C industry. Bob got involved in R/C planes when he was a young boy and spent his entire working career in the industry. Novak has been around for 30 years, so the company has had years of involvement in the industry. We even know all of the people who have sold their companies---Losi, Associated, Orion/Peak.

But, I think what you mean by passion is, why doesn't Novak make some of the cool products that posters here want. Making a few, hand made products to be sold to a select group of customers is easy. Manufacturing the products to be sold to thousands of users at prices buyers are willing to pay is another matter.

For every product a manufacturer replaces, or gives away, free, the company must sell 5-8 new items to recover the parts/labor/overhead costs of that free item.

Bob, Adnan Khan (Novak's Senior Designer), and the entire tech staff are definitely well-informed about comments on various forums---both the complimentary ones and the not-so-flattering. So keep the ideas and comments flowing.

Why is a 5mm shaft on a HV-Maxx rotor such a big deal? Couldn't you just use a bigger bearing and machine the rotor to 5mm? Why not a 5mm shaft conversion kit for the existing HV motors? I've run the HV-Maxx 6.5 in my E-Revo and my 1/8 buggy with success. A lot of others have too. The 1/8 shaft is the big weakness and the main reason I changed systems.

Finnster 09.11.2007 09:59 AM

So has this issue w/ 14cells been confirmed then? I know of a couple reports, but is this def a widespread issue w/ the newer batches of controllers rather than some big assumptions being made about a few off controllers?

NovakTwo 09.11.2007 02:27 PM

With all due respect, if coming out with this HV system (at a price any of you would be willing to pay) was that easy, Castle or Tekin would be selling them already. It seems that the Monster store offers quite a few super high voltage controllers--what's wrong with using them?

The upfront R&D and tooling costs for complete new systems is pretty high, and, at this time, the super high voltage market is pretty small. When, or if, some car mfg releases an 1/8th scale electric buggy things may really change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutach (Post 117659)
If Novak comes out with a system that will fulfill our requirements which is good for most 1/8 racers and bashers, I'll buy one. Just make a sensored system that handles up to 10 or 12S lipos and design a 2 and 4 poles motor to fit the bill. It should be easy for you guys. Now if you say it is not easy, then I guess there is some trouble within the company.

Castle seems to be having their fare share of troubles. I know CC has engineers and I'm pretty sure Novak does as well. Put them to work.
Novak makes a profit on current products and why not use some of the profit to design new products. It might not be a big gamble if you listen to us users. Now if you guys at Novak need help procuring the electronic components, for a price I can share my secrete.


lutach 09.11.2007 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovakTwo (Post 117804)
With all due respect, if coming out with this HV system (at a price any of you would be willing to pay) was that easy, Castle or Tekin would be selling them already. It seems that the Monster store offers quite a few super high voltage controllers--what's wrong with using them?

The upfront R&D and tooling costs for complete new systems is pretty high, and, at this time, the super high voltage market is pretty small. When, or if, some car mfg releases an 1/8th scale electric buggy things may really change.

They don't have a sensored system. I'm working on making a few 1/8 scale chassis that will be marketed for BL systems. Like I said before, I own a few Aveox system and I run one of them in my Stampede. I even made a little video of the darn thing going 45mph LOL. The Aveox is rated at 60A cont. with adequate airflow and 100A burst. Novak already possesses the know how. I sell electronic components for some of the best EMS companies in the world and they have told me if a company already makes a sensored system, it would not be that expansive to actually come out with a higher voltage product. Aveox btw has 3 versions of their sensored controllers: L (up to 16 cells, the M up to 21 cells and the H up to 32 cells). I own all the series.

snellemin 09.11.2007 03:53 PM

R&D is the killer, I should know since I work in such a devision. Tooling is the other cashcow.

lutach 09.11.2007 03:59 PM

R&D is a killer when you're designing something completely different. They already have the MPU software OK. I know this beacuse Videoton of Hungary sent me quotes for a prototype product and they changed the quote 8 times before they had it right, but this was for a new product. Now for products they already make, they might change for something compatible and that is it. I would like to see a system that could also run the sensored Aveox. Does Novak have their own engineers?

snellemin 09.11.2007 04:59 PM

True that the cost won't be as great as designing something from scratch, but what will the cost be for creating an "enhancement" of a current product? 15-40K? Is the market big enough to cover that cost? Or could it be that they are playing the cat and mouse game with the consumer market...them waiting for a big scale electric RC to hit the market and then they'll follow with the electronics.

NovakTwo 09.11.2007 05:08 PM

Each system requires new tooling for 2 multi-layer PCBs, case, water-"resistant" seal, heatsinks, packaging, instructions, art work, advertising The software usually needs to be updated with each new release to add new features---lipo cut-off circuitry, motor rotation, etc. etc.---so each system project starts from almost ground zero.

Then a number of prototypes need to be designed and mostly hand built. Then the beta units have to be tested. Most of the other sub projects don't begin until the board design is locked-in. Then all the parts for the project can be ordered---some with 8-12 week lead times. Novak has 4 engineers---5 really, but 1 is the Operations Manager.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutach (Post 117831)
R&D is a killer when you're designing something completely different. They already have the MPU software OK. I know this beacuse Videoton of Hungary sent me quotes for a prototype product and they changed the quote 8 times before they had it right, but this was for a new product. Now for products they already make, they might change for something compatible and that is it. I would like to see a system that could also run the sensored Aveox. Does Novak have their own engineers?


lutach 09.11.2007 05:13 PM

NOVAK, IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME....IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME....IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME....
I saw a baseball movie of a guy who built this field in the middle of no where and guess what, they came. I wish I could remember that name of that movie. I'm pretty sure there are around 10000 people world wide that would buy such a HV system, specially from a company like Novak. Let say if your cost is $150 per system and you sell it for $350 that equals to $2,000,000 in profit. Better yet, does Novak post any financial information at all for investors? If so you can actually see the company's profit.

BrianG 09.11.2007 05:14 PM

Field of Dreams. Never saw it, but there has been enough talk about it that I remember it...

NovakTwo 09.11.2007 05:41 PM

The only people foolish enough to invest in NE are the Novaks.

You have a charming misconception of the profitability of R/C electronics and other products. There is a reason why Losi, Associated and Orion/Peak have been aquired by bigger companies in the last few years.

As soon as a company comes out with something new and exciting, it is only a short time before a Chinese factory manages to knock it off.

snellemin 09.11.2007 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovakTwo (Post 117868)
The only people foolish enough to invest in NE are the Novaks.

You have a charming misconception of the profitability of R/C electronics and other products. There is a reason why Losi, Associated and Orion/Peak have been aquired by bigger companies in the last few years.

As soon as a company comes out with something new and exciting, it is only a short time before a Chinese factory manages to knock it off.

Very true. I see that on a daily basis.

lutach 09.11.2007 05:56 PM

Yes, I understand your point. I do own a company, before this I worked as a stock broker and pitching to a client the profits of a company was the best way to sell the stock. Now I've been around electronics components since 2000 and some of the profits I make are out of this world. For example, I can buy ATMEGA8L-8AU for $0.65 for 500pcs. or less and $0.45 for 10Kpcs. and more, the IRFS3207 I bought from a US company for $1.75 (EXPENSIVE) and that was only 250 pieces and for 1000+pcs. that price would come down to $0.85 a piece. So I do have some Idea of the profits some companies can make.

snellemin 09.11.2007 06:01 PM

hey lutach,

we here made a mistake not long ago to go with cheaper caps. Needless too say they blew up within minutes. It looked good on paper though, it reducing the cost per unit by 5 cents or so.

lutach 09.11.2007 06:22 PM

Here is a funny thing that happened in 2002. I called Bob at Astro Flight to see if I could get some of his business. He asked me to quote him on a couple of things. He told me that there was no way my prices were that low. I even gave him NET30 of the bat and he still said no. I asked him where he buys the components from, he said Digi-Key. That blew me of my seat. So I told him the only people I know of that buys from Digi-Key are the small repair shops and people that are in a hobby and needs 2 or 3 parts. He never spoke to me again. I know that it comes down to the profit and every few cent counts, specially when you save that extra few cents on the same part that was bought from a different company.

snellemin 09.11.2007 06:42 PM

Kinda odd that he never spoke to you again. Unless he really didn't want your business(he had a really good deal somewhere and threw you off by mentioning Digi-Key), or was just plain embarrased.

lutach 09.11.2007 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snellemin (Post 117889)
Kinda odd that he never spoke to you again. Unless he really didn't want your business(he had a really good deal somewhere and threw you off by mentioning Digi-Key), or was just plain embarrased.

I think he was embarrassed that I told him small repair shop buys from Digi-Key, but it is true. If I need 5 capacitors I'll most definitely buy from Digi-Key, Mouser or Newark.

lutach 09.11.2007 07:05 PM

Like I said Novak, If you build it they will come. I will get this one.

http://www.teamnovak.com/products/br...tor/index.html

lutach 09.11.2007 07:08 PM

Put me in for testing.

lutach 09.11.2007 07:19 PM

http://www.teamnovak.com/notices/index.html

NovakTwo 09.11.2007 07:52 PM

I take it you have never met Bob B. from Astro Flight.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by snellemin (Post 117889)
Kinda odd that he never spoke to you again. Unless he really didn't want your business(he had a really good deal somewhere and threw you off by mentioning Digi-Key), or was just plain embarrased.


snellemin 09.11.2007 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NovakTwo (Post 117914)
I take it you have never met Bob B. from Astro Flight.....

Nope :no:. What's the scoop with that guy?

NovakTwo 09.11.2007 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snellemin (Post 117915)
Nope :no:. What's the scoop with that guy?

He's a bit....gruff

That's all I'm sayin'

entjoles 09.11.2007 08:28 PM

is there really a update on the way for 08, i hope so, i really like my hvmaxx but went with the wrong gearing :slap:

gyn77 09.13.2007 04:22 AM

Replay From Castle Creations
 
This is a mail that castle creations wrote me on yestarday answering my questions about MM:

"The stuff about a change in the Mamba Max that makes it not work with over a 4s pack is not true. It has not been changed and it has always been the case that if you plug in a 5s pack there is a good chance that the ESC will quit working and be damaged. Some will withstand this and work OK on 5s. Either way they are out of warranty. There is no check that makes them not work on a 4s pack. Be careful with technical details presented as fact on discussion groups. The person that started this rumor has no contact with us and if we made a change like this, we would let people know. We do say that if the Mamba Max is used with 4s it is out of warranty but this is not an ESC
limit, 4s will destroy our high Kv motors. The ESC is actually OK on 4s, but
still out of warranty."

skellyo 09.13.2007 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyn77 (Post 118130)
This is a mail that castle creations wrote me on yestarday answering my questions about MM:

"The stuff about a change in the Mamba Max that makes it not work with over a 4s pack is not true. It has not been changed and it has always been the case that if you plug in a 5s pack there is a good chance that the ESC will quit working and be damaged. Some will withstand this and work OK on 5s. Either way they are out of warranty. There is no check that makes them not work on a 4s pack. Be careful with technical details presented as fact on discussion groups. The person that started this rumor has no contact with us and if we made a change like this, we would let people know. We do say that if the Mamba Max is used with 4s it is out of warranty but this is not an ESC
limit, 4s will destroy our high Kv motors. The ESC is actually OK on 4s, but
still out of warranty."

What I don't get is how is the 4600 rated to run 12 NiMh cells on the MM under warranty, but 4S Lipo voids your warranty? Apparently the guys at Castle have no idea just how much voltage a lot of the newer NiMh cells are supplying these days.

lutach 09.13.2007 09:32 AM

They should know that some fully charged NiCd or NiMH cells put out 1.4V+- and 12 cells at 1.4V= 16.8 and it is the same as a fully charged 4S lipo. I know some of us are no engineers, but it seems that some company's engineers need to go back and learn more. If I was the owner of CC or Novak and had to pay my engineer to make things work, he better do it. He gats paid for that. Like I said in other threads and forums, "What are you guys paying your engineers to do?" Have you guys seen the new crop of "CAR" BL controllers coming out of Asia? If the product is good, you know people will go for it.

BrianG 09.13.2007 09:41 AM

Yeah, I've always said that 12 cells or 4s lipo is practically same:

4s lipo nominal charge @ 3.7v/cell: 14.8v
12 cells nominal charge @ 1.2v/cell: 14.4v

4s lipo "right off the charger" @ 4.2v/cell: 16.8v
12 cells "right off the charger" @ 1.4v/cell: 16.8v

Manufacturers probably figure that a "good" lipo pack maintains a higher voltage under heavy load than NiMH.

entjoles 09.13.2007 05:08 PM

so maybe the people that this is not working for had bad solder joints or ?????

suicideneil 09.13.2007 07:38 PM

Or what indeed. We know the fets in use are different now- what are they rated for compared to the old ones? I would have thought though that changing the fets wouldnt stop it being 14cell capable, but changing something in the brains or programming would? 'Tis weird.

BrianG 09.13.2007 08:28 PM

Yeah, I don't think just changing the FETs changed anything, but they might have done something at the same time that affected the voltage capability. Everyone says they didn't change anything, but I know for a fact they did change the FETs, so what else didn't they change?

johnrobholmes 10.24.2007 01:34 AM

From what I have been told, the 4s rating is out of warranty because the lipo packs keep a higher voltage over the life of the pack. This leads to more heat buildup, and the motors that Castle sells with the mamba max wont take 4s WOT either.

Andrew32 11.14.2007 02:10 PM

wow, im reall getting confused. Howd things go to novak and such?

Im planning to run a MM with a 8xl on 14-cells. so are hte "new" able to handle 14cell or will it just fry up like the earlier ones?

BrianG 11.14.2007 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnrobholmes (Post 124799)
From what I have been told, the 4s rating is out of warranty because the lipo packs keep a higher voltage over the life of the pack. This leads to more heat buildup, and the motors that Castle sells with the mamba max wont take 4s WOT either.

Then Castle should remove the predefined 4s cutoff value from the options in the Link software. As far as the motors go, I'd say about half of the people running the MM ESC are actually using it with a MM motor.

Andrew: From various reports, any of the newer MM ESC's won't work with 14 cells. You can try it, but might just get some type of error indicator.

squeeforever 11.14.2007 07:35 PM

The earlier ones did "fry up." They worked on 14 and even 16...

david lamontagn 11.14.2007 08:04 PM

This is for marketing, the MMM is to the point of be available, and this is for this reason that castle have modify the MM. Like that, the guys who just run 4s and was fine with the MM, could not take the MM, no choice to buy a MMM.
Maybe i'am wrong, but this is what i think.:eyes:


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