to settle this once and for all we should DONATE some packs and have them tested by someone here on RCM. I would be willing to donate a Thunder Power 5000mAh 4s1p 40c for testing purposes, provided i got it back once testing is completed. There are several here that i would trust to do this. Thoughts, suggestions? Lets do this and get some REAL WORLD feedback on these CLAIMS!

Yeah, that's the one. :great:

Why don't we try to throw something together in the off season? We can start with the maxamps pack. Is the goal here to check a pack's abiblity to deliver what it's ratings say it will? Or to put like packs in order of performance?

In any case I would like to test packs that are a "standard" size and as much capacity as possible , but limit to 2S. The standard size is what a 6 cell stick pack is and the standard 6 cell 1/18 scale packs as well.

Have I missed anyone?

dezfan $20
Unsullied_Spy $5
nitrostarter
lincpimp
FastXR
Bondonutz $20
rawfuls
FastXR $10
hoober $20

Sure, i think it would be a great ideal, maybe we can get RC Monster (Mike) to do something official and get some of the companies to join in somehow. Rc Monster is big anyway, i think with a little help maybe we can get some standardized testing, or at least make this THE PLACE that people go to get the scoop on Real World Lipo Testing and reviews. Mike what do you think?

I personally think Mike has enough on his plate. The last time I talked to him, he said he started growing another set of arms to keep up with the workload. :smile:

As far as what should be tested; I think the ratings should be substantiated at the very least. And provide the voltage per cell at that rating along with the temperature.

After being away from the forums for a while I was looking forward to catching up on the latest products and such. Sadly I could not resist checking this thread out only to discover what looks to be a clone of the last debate around MA's latest product release.

For me the most disappointing things about this thread is that Austin no longer seems genuinely interested in addressing customers concerns with his product. The response given to BrianG's example of a specific and documented problem with MA product was appalling and more like something I would expect from Jason... I believe I have lost any respect that I had for Austin previously.

As for 3rd party testing of any of MA products I would not hold my breath. If I recall correctly the last time someone did that (with prior consent mind you) they were threatened with legal action if the posted test results were not removed.

Austin I'm certain that nobody enjoys having their company/product/person put down or portrayed in a negative manner, who would?

But if you are going to ask for specific examples of problems your customers may have had with your product in a public forum have the decency to acknowledge the ones that reply with valid documented concerns. If you are no longer willing to do so that is ok too. Just don't come around asking questions you don't want answered.

I do get a kick out of the advertising claims of the "best this" or "most powerful that". Very amusing stuff...

Just go Play, I agree with you on all you said.

I felt the same after I read the thread. Haven't bothered to follow the MA story here lately, just came back to research some batt stuff, read this thread, and felt exactly the same as you.

Good thing my 2 3S 3000mAh MA packs didn't burst into flames. If anyone saw the pics I posted, they would see the packs were very close. I'll see where I put them and post them here again.

We can (in addition to substantiating ratings) simply test at various levels of current. In other words, who cares what the rating or label says. Run the pack at 20C,30C,40C,50C and 60C and allow the voltage graph to speak for itself. Anyone can call it any way they see it. This process will in itself substantiate the ratings even if the operator has no idea which pack is being tested at the time.

I would say to pull the pack down from full charge to 3v per cell (maybe 10 amp load?) and see what the capacity is. The done the load tests at 10-20-30-40c, etc. That way you do not need to even look at the label on the pack, just go by the data that you log. So you will get a real world capacity and current ability. Some oscillating tests from 1c to 40c over a few seconds, then repeated would also be interesting, just to see pack performance. Also noting pack imbalance after load testing would be handy.

OHHHH, I want it:lol:

I agree, very meaningful tests.

Novak hv6.5 watts
 

Novak lists there hv6.5 at 730 watts is this surge watts please help me understand i stupid.

it means that its a low power motor...

I believe that would be maximum continuous watts, most BL motors I've looked at for typical MT or 1/8 scale use are in the 900watt upto 1500watt range.

The novaks are still pretty good at shifting lighter weight stuff, and dont consume as much go-juice in the process compared to say an MMM or Rx8 etc.

However, DO NOT GO BY THE SURGE WATTS RATING ON MAXAMPS LIPOS AS ITS TRIPE, AND DO NOT TRY TO CALCULATE HOW MANY SURGE WATTS YOUR SETUP WILL USE AS ITS NEAR ENOUGH IMPOSSIBLE.

Use common sense (if you have any) and read around to learn about proper lipo choice for any given motor/esc/vehicle setup- there are zillions of threads here, so use the search button.

Or just buy a pair of 30c 5000mah 2s lipos from hobbycity.com.

Im trying to understand maxamps surge watt rating with the hv6.5 motor as this is the only brushless motor i have to compare to there surge watt bs.

Must have writing at the same time as you Neil will the hobby city batts cut the mustard in and erevo with the hv6.5 that weighs in at 13 pounds.

You wont be able to, as like I said, its near impossibble to tell how many watts your system is developing under acceleration (surge) without the use of an EagleTree data logger or similiar item. Even then, you may not capture the largest spikes with total accuracy, as it samples the current and voltage (volts x amps = watts) every 10milli-seconds I believe, so you may only catch the start of the spike of the tail end of it.

Typically, I've seen spikes in the 120-130amps region for normal BL setups running 4-6s lipo, so thats somewhere in the 2000-3000watts region. A decent 4s 25c 5000mah lipo can deliver 1800watts, or 6s 2700watts, which is pretty much fine- the hvmaxx being a less powerful system will draw somewhere around 80% of what a 1000watt motor will do. Thats an educated guess though, havent seen many, if any Eagletree sessions carried out on a hvmaxx- might be a question for the novak techs perhaps, though I imagine they will just give you 'on paper' ratings rather than real world test results, which is understandable.

Buy the best batts you can afford at the end of the day. :smile:

Wow, its like you travelled back in time and stole my setup from a few years ago....

The lipos will be fine, but you will find that the motor cant physically produce enough power to move the truck faster than about 25-30mph; all the lipos in the world cant make up for a lack of torque, so you have to geare down to prevent the esc melting from the high current draw; thats from directly compareable experience, so believe me when I say you need to either loose some weight off the truck (about 3lbs), or step up to a bigger BL system... :yes:

Wow what a catch up.

I don't really understand this surge wattage rating.

My only problem was a packed that puffed up and I had to buy another to replace. :grrrrrr:

I would like to see some kind of test results myself.

Check this out: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1141672

They talk all this stuff, but can't provide some sort of proof.

See?

Sssssshhhhhhhhhh...........it's a secret!

With the attitudes in that thread, they're gonna get really hungry if they're waiting on me to buy anything from them.

The secret is.............

Sssshhhhhhhhhh...............

They only have a label machine.

LOL

Instead of sending candy/mints with your order they should include a rubber since your getting F'ed anyway.

Probably will be gone soon, enjoy while you can.;

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wow i picked the right minute to check the forum, that was a tiny window of opportunity

There's still a post there..
Page 1.

Well, Jason closed the thread as it started to stink a bit with all the crap he was saying. If a company like MA can't back up what they're saying, I would never support them again.

Jason is such a poor representation of what a company spokesman should be.

What cracks me up more than anything is that he gets angry when you don't take everything that comes out of his mouth as the gospel truth.:cry:

Keep digging that hole MA, keep digging.:lol:

I saw the 60C rating in the title and first post and got quite excited but after reading that it is a surge rating I am not so sure.

I have some questions for Austin should he ever come back.

I have not used a maxamps product before and at the moment it doesn't look like I will at least for the time being, not because of any past experience, feud or loyalty to my chums here but simply because I don't understand the surge C rating format that you have switched to, I followed the LiPo care link that you posted hopping to have it clarified but it does not explain the surge regime there in a way that I can understand either, I understand the constant C and burst C ratings most other LiPos have, the constant C being the maximum current a LiPo can sustain for a full discharge without going over the manufactures maximum recommended temperature (I know many here think that there should be a minimum voltage worked into it too, and while I agree I am too sceptical of the manufactures data to expect it), and the burst C being the maximum pampage that can be drawn for 10 seconds without damage to the cells. but surge I am unsure of as you are the only company that I have heard of using it, is it the same as burst 10 seconds like you might use on a speed run? or a short sub 1 second spike as you might see on initial acceleration out of a corner in a car? if it is the short spike type is it just a single spike or does it allow that there will be a large number of such spikes in a discharge, and is there a base current that it spikes up from or does it go back down to nothing? for example I have seen battery graphs with a 10c constant discharge and a 1 second burst of 20C every 5 seconds, I've seen the same thing with 10c base and a 1 second 30C spike every 10 seconds, 5 seconds of 10C 5 seconds of 20C alternating, all will give different data with the same battery, the surge C rating would mean a lot more to me if I knew the regime in which it was measured.

I am mainly a boater and just have a couple of cars as sometimes I don't want to drive to the lake which is a fair distance for me and find it easier to drive in the road outside or if its raining (and I live in England so its not rare) I can chuck my buggy out the door and drive in the garden drom the warmth and comfort of my living room, the eagletree graphs of my boats are very different to those of my cars, the cars averaging about 25A but mainly in very short spikes of about 120A from a base of less than 10A, and I have 3 types of boats minis that average about 20A from a 20A base but with spikes up to 30A and down to 10A as the prop comes out of the water after a wave unloads revving the motor up then re-immerses deeper than normal loading up, endurance race boats that pull an average of 60A with peaks up to 100A and down to 40A and sprint boats that pull 120A average, spikes over what my eagletree can handle but I would guess around 200A and down to 80A How does this relate to your surge rating? would your 60C surge rated 5250 battery be up to the enduro race and sprint setups in a 1p configuration and will the 2200 take my mini setup?

You list 4 reasons continous C ratings are irrelevant in the battery care page you linked to all of which are can be overcome, most without much effort.
* Your entire run time would be less than 90 seconds.
Sprinting is 5 laps, its over in about a minute so 90 seconds is plenty of runtime

* You would melt the RC plug attached to the pack(Deans, Traxxas, Tamiya, etc).
I haven't seen a Tamiya conector for about 15 years even with modified 540motors and NiCads they were melting, I saw the last deans about 10 years ago when BL came on the scene and they started melting, dont know anyone that tried Traxxas as they look as bad as deans, I use 6mm bullets for everything and have since the high capacity 20C LiPos came out, 4mm bullets were enough till then.

* The bullet connectors on a hard case pack would melt out of the casing.
I wasn't adverse to cutting the cases of TP 40C packs when they first came out and were only available in hard cases, although this is the tricky one, you have to be very careful and its not for everyone.

* Even 12awg noodle wire would get too hot to touch.
I couldn't agree more and seeing the 12awg cable in the first post was the thing that first gave away the fact that these may not be the 60C continuous cells that I was hopping for and quite frankly I don't see a place for 12g wires on any 5Ah 20c+ battery, since the first big capacity 20C cells came out I've used Flightpower, Thunderpower, Nue Energy, Kokam, Zippy and Turnegy cells, all of them apart for the Zippys and the thunderpowers came with 8awg wires, the TPs came hard cased with no wires so I added 8awg and the Zippys I replaced the 12awg they came with for 8awg, (Kokams come with 8awg right down to the 1800s I use in my mini although I think its overkill for this size battery)

Some of us do run at high currents and I find the constant and burst C ratings useful, I often run my sprint setup which is 30C continuous with 40C peaks and occasionally run SAW which is about a 5 second burst 10 seconds of low power then a 5 second burst and another 10 seconds of low power per run which is quite close to the burst spec. so personally I would prefer that you included them as well as helping us understand the main surge rating you are now using, you mentioned that you changed the rating system not the packs, what constant and burst C ratings do these packs have under the old rating system?

I very much like the fact that you offer a warranty on batteries with a surge watt rating higher than the surge watt rating of the motor used but unfortunately I only have 1 CC or Novak motor a mamba 7700 I use with 2s A123s and I have 10 packs that I made from a pair of dewalt drill batteries so hopefully I have enough to last me a lifetime in that car, and none of my other motors have a surge watt in the documentation they came with, it says you have a list available if I call Maxamps but I have a fair few motors not all of them popular in the states, they may be hard to find on your spreadsheet or need calculating, could you tell me here what the surge watt ratings of my motors are or maybe if its a calculation you could tell me the formula and I can go through the list at my pleasure then email it back to you for confirmation? I Dont want to call as its an international call for me and I I anticipate it costing me as much for the phone call as a battery would cost. I have in order of size, motor then cell count in case you need that:-
Hacker b20/18L s3/4s
Mega 16/15/2 2s/3s
Mega 16/15/3 3s
Neu 1110/1d 2s
Mega 22/20/1 2s
Mega 22/20/2 2s/3s
Mega 22/20/4 3s/4s
Mega 22/30/2 4s
Mega 22/30/3 6s
Neu 1509/1.5d 2s/4s
Hacker 9L 4s
Hacker 12L 4s
Feigao 6XL 4s
Feigao 8XL 4s
Neu 1521/2.5d 6s/8s
Lehner 2280/11d 12s
Thanks for your time Austin.

Paul

Great post Paul, but I am not sure he will be coming back given his attitude towards our questions/concerns. You might want to sign up at Nitrokillers.com (Maxamps forum) and post that again there. You'll probably get a response sooner.

Agreed, Don't think Jason or Austin will be around again anytime soon ?

Post this in rcgroups and rctech as well. They have their own spcae there. Lets see how they handle the good questions.

Another player in the Life cells, but lets see if the S boys will go MA style on prices: http://www.redrc.net/2009/11/speed-p...of-life-packs/. They offer the choices I mentioned before. Looks like MA is lacking behind and have they gone a bit quiet? I'll be posting this at similar threads in here, so in advanced.....SORRY FOR SPAMMING.

Seems he likes to beat around the bush huh?

I agree with daf and JGP. Brian's post was direct and he didnt want to answer it id say. We all know they cant put out what there rated for, or there would of been a graph/proof! I mean shoot, if your new 60C packs were cream of the crop, and really pack a punch, I would make a graph mandatory for guys like us over here. I mean why would you not? The guys at max amps are very cool, theres no doubt there, but over rated, over priced packs arent appealing to anyone.

For racing I solidly use the thunder power 2s 5000mah 40C and now 50C lipos. Im sure they dont really put out 40 and 50C, But there awesome packs, with awesome customer service! I mistakenly left a pack plugged in overnight in my car after racing all day and it discharged its self to 5.4 volts, I charged it back up and it had puffed a little bit. Sent it in, said this is what happened bla bla, I wasnt expecting them to do much since it was my fault, but they ended up replacing it for free! I had no receipt, and it was easily 6 months old. I dont know how you can beat that? Im not biased on something like lipos. I buy what works! And thunderpower has treated me very well!

Now im tired as heck, and have to get to bed LOL, gotta get up early tomorrow for racing. Hope that makes sense.

http://www.rctech.net/forum/maxamps-...erion-duo.html

:rofl:

That thread is comical, poor Jason doesnt have a clue about... anything really.

I also find comical MA's 4 points about why C ratings are no good anymore; if a continuous current of ~100amps or so is enough to ruin the battery, wires, plugs and give you a 90second runtime, then how is some bollocks ~600amps+ surge rating with no info on duration any more useful? 600amps being pulled for any longer than a few milliseconds will destroy ones entire setup. It beggars belief they havent been taken to court before now for false advertising and encouraging dangerous usage of lipos... :neutral:

There is alot of this that's pretty comical really.

I've been working with Tech guys that service our 1000ah (not mah) 36 volt lead acid batteries where I work.

I've been asking lots of questions and doing my home work.

One question that I asked was:

What is the Maximum discharge for amperage for the 36 volt 1000ah battery?

We're talking about a battery that weighs about 2800 pounds and has huge leads.

The answer I got is:

750 amps. The cells themselves could probably go higher, but 750 amps is the upper limitation of the lead jumper bars. It is at this point where it will blow the jumper bars off the cells.

The jumper bars are huge. They are about the size of your average Lipo pack. The cells are connected with a pair of these on each side!

These large batteries power electric forklifts used in our freezer. Each forklift weighs right at 10,000 pounds.

There's ALOT of playing with numbers in the Lipo market. That's for sure. :yes:

Blimey...

It sounds pretty much the same as esc ratings- multiply theoritcal ratings together to acheive some rediculous spec that no-one will ever pull, but they'll set fire to their truck/ self trying to. Atleast some of us are clued up I guess, but we will always be labelled as haters for questioning a companies ratings & wisdom... :sarcastic:

Why do you always feel the need to attack me Neil? :mdr::mdr::lol::lol::lol:

"Frankly it would not be fair for me to pick and choose from your concerns, questions, and negative opinions.", as stated by Austin himself.

To me, this sounds like Nixon right before Watergate.

There will be a time to "Come clean".

It's really not that far away either.