The 1515 is a great motor and it works just fine in a buggy. But the 1512 also works fine and it's smaller lighter and cheaper.

IF the Castle motor is the equal of the Neu then it will be a bargain and I will get one even though it's not ideal.

Joe,

Has your 2200KV motor been tested with 6s? Will it survive full RPM from a 6s lipo? I'm building a 8ight-t, I will be using your MMM ESC and had planed on the 1550KV motor and small 10-11T pinion to match to my 46T spur gear (Conversion is on order from RCProductDesigns)

I'm thinking 2200KV is way too much for 6s (I have a TP6s5000 pack I plan on using.)

Would you recomend I try your motor or just order a NEU 1515 1.5Y?

Thanks,

Lee

I am fairly sure he has stated before in this thread that the 2200 has been tested on 6s. The question is under how much load.

Yep, it's been tested with 6S in an E-Maxx as far as I know. This is what Patrick said a while back:

"Monster Max Motor:

Steve Neu design
1515/1Y (first motor -- others available soon afterwards)
2200Kv
3HP continuous output at 6S Lipo (2400 watts input with cooling)
6HP+ output peak (4800+ watts input)
Continuous operation at up to 125C (external) / 150C (internal) without damage
5mm shaft

Our drop-in for the Emaxx hits 60mph+ on 6S Lipo.

Measured temps after abuse run (full throttle to about 30mph, full brake to about 5mph, repeated for full run on 4800mah Lipos at about 80 degrees ambient)
ESC: 128 F
Motor: 172 F"

Obviously they're not doing the other motor winds now...but that seems like a fairly good test to me. :-)

im in the same boat. I think 2200k/v with 5s is just going to be faster than I want. I used to run 1668k/v(10xl) and it was about all I could handle. but Im still going to get it. Im just going to gear down as much as I can without buying another pinion.

17/40 with close ratio 2nd(locked)
used to run 17/36 wide with both gears.

heat is one problem, but if that doesnt get you the reduced run time of the high reving motor will. Just try and finish a long main on the high rpm motor.

Guys... If its not available there are other motors out there. Yes I know nobody wants to drop the cash on a Neu if theMMM motor will work, but if the controler wokrks as advertized we are still way ahead. I'm sure the lower kv motors will eventally come.

IMO, I don't know what the fuss is all about. Yeah, 2200kv is a bit high for 6s, but if you don't want to go that fast, just gear down. For a given battery voltage and vehicle speed (mechanical load) a higher kv motor geared down will draw just as much current as a lower kv motor geared up, and runtime will be about the same. Any efficiency gained by using a low kv motor is lost by gearing high to compensate for lower speeds. Again, this is for a given voltage and vehicle speed.

Plus, spinning a motor a little faster and gearing down is better for the ESC because it has enough rpms at low speed to get adequate back-EMF pulses. A too-low kv motor geared high will spin too slow at low vehicle speeds and may produce cogging. Of course, this theory holds true for better motors like LMTs and Neus (which the CC motors are based off of) - you wouldn't treat Feigaos the same way because of their lower rpm sweet spot.

If geared down and it's still too fast, set the throttle EPA down a tad. Once you get bored with that speed, increase it back up to 100% and you'll be happy again....until max speed becomes boring. :smile:

Yes you can make anything "work". But the point is that a 2200kv motor on 6s is FAR from optimal. I personally wouldn't even consider running the motor at almost 50K rpm on a consistent basis. I don't care how great the motor is. That's just asking for problems.

I don't have any data to offer here, but I sure would be interested to see how spinning a 2200kv motor on 6s at ~50K rpm is just as efficient as spinning a 1500kv motor at ~35K rpm. Even with the gearing compensated to drive the vehicle at the same overall speed theoretically. Why wouldn't we all just run all of our motors at 50K rpm then? It creates heat generated by the increased inefficiency. Not to mention really narrowing the gearing window you have to work with. With a high quality motor spinning at a reasonable rpm on the correct voltage the gearing options up and down from the "optimal" setup is quite large. Even with the high end motors once you start taking one of the parameters out side of the optimal range (in this case the rpm) you start to limit your flexibility on the other setup parameters.

I see that they test report that someone gave onthe temps after a hard beating run on 6s and they were still within limits, but now take that gearing and go up or down a coulple teeth. I gaurantee you dont get temps still in spec. If you had a properly matched battery and motor you will gain alot of flexability in your setup.


Bottom line... can you make it work? Yes. Would it be better to have a properly specified motor for the voltage you want to run? Yes. Would I run the 2200kv motor on 6s as an everyday set up. No. Would I spend my money on a system that I know from the get go isnt "right"? NO. Just my opinon.

To me the 2200 kv motor looks to be perfect for 5s for normal running, it would be geared slightly lower than an 9xl on 5s, but not much different.

You would then have the option of running it on 6s for speed runs or the like. For track use, most seem to think that 4s and a 2200kv motor is enough, but all they are trying to do is run at nitro speed, mainly cause that is all the track is designed for, and the vehicle may not be able to handle the extra speed.

A lower kv motor like 1800-1900 kv would be optimium for 6s, IMO. I routinely push my 7xl over 35k rpm, truck is geared for 40mph. I see no reason why a higher quality motor could not handle 40k rpm.

On a side note, does anyone here run a 1515 on 6s lipo in a maxx or revo truck? Seems like too much motor, but I guess the gearing will detirmine the load. And the motor should run cooler.

Why not a 4s or 5s setup? It is just as expensive to get a new battery as it is a (nice) new motor, maybe even cheaper. If they came out with a 1500kv motor we would have just as many complaints that it wasn't fast enough! With the initial 2200kv motor release, the 6s max MMM voltage will be able to squeeze the most out of the system RPM wise. Sure it might not be optimal for every vehicle, but name ONE motor that is.

The main thing to look at is the efficiency "band" of a particular motor. I wouldn't dream of running Feigaos at anywhere near that speed, but a better quality motor surely can handle it fine and remain in its efficiency band. IIRC, the motor program Griffin posted a while back shows that the 15xx Neus are quite efficient at speeds upwards of 50k+. Granted, I am assuming that the CC Neu-based motors will have similar characteristics as a "real" Neu, but it should be somewhat close.

And don't forget that the total rpm will be affected by the current draw. Higher currents = lower real kv value.

And we can't just look at pure unloaded rpm efficiency. There is also load efficiency too. A motor running at it's sweet rpm, but loaded heavily by tall gearing may be just as inefficient as the same motor running slightly higher rpm but geared more ideally.

I guess we won't know exactly how these motors will perform until the system is released and someone can get some numbers posted, but I don't think it will be as bad as some think...

Everyone tosses around the 35K rpm rule as if it's one of the Ten Commandments of brushless. "Thou shalt not exceed 35,000 rpm, or thine motor shall surely suffer!"

Maybe it's true, maybe not. I know it applies to a low quality motor like a Feigao, but what about a high quality Neu? I've never seen a detailed study showing motor temps at different speeds. Neu rates their motors at 60K max. I don't know if that has anthing to do with efficency, or if that is simply the limits of the bearings.

I do know that the mildest MM motor, the 4600, spins at 34,000 rpm with only a 2S lipo. And we all know that most people run MM motors at much higher rpm's than this. Are there different rules for a 1/10 motor vs. a 1/8 motor? I know that the bigger motor has a higher rotational inertia, but how much does that affect the efficiency of the motor at a certain rpm?

Until we see this new motor in action, none of us really knows how well it will run on 6S. I'm sure it won't be too bad, though, or Castle wouldn't risk the potential warranty costs.

With all that said, I still hope the 1700 and 1500 motors come out soon. :yes:


edit: Brian, you beat me to my point!

Exactly.


In reality, I personally dont really care what motor they offer at this point. Just get the controller released. Motor chioce is not the problem, there are tons of options for motor choice. Its getting a controller that performs the way we want, and if the controller can handle a 1515 sized motor with those kinds of rpms and vehicle speeds I cant wait to get my hands on one.

The only problem I see with the 2200kv motor, is gearing low enough in some setups due to motor running into something before a small pinion meshes. Other than that I have no problem running 50,000 if the motor can handle it. I run Big Maxximum (2300kv) on 6s no problem, and have even run a 7XL (similar kv) on 6s as well. Of course the XL will get much hotter than a better motor, but it gets no hotter than it did on 4s!

I already have the 2.5/1515 (1700kv) on 4s its a bit slow (20/51, maxx/gorilla tranny w/1/8 buggy diffs) I know mike makes a 22 and 24 pinions, on 5s its awsome with the same gearing. I like the 2200kv motor for 4s racing, My track runs RC Pro rules and that will allow me to run my electrics in nitro. Whoever said that speeds to match Nitro's is correct, my 5s powered revo is just too much for the track, it accelerates faster than my V-spec 8T, which is very impressive for a .21 truggy

I think some of us are going to be a little disappointed because we thought they were going to release different motor options.
I will be happy to finally have a reliable esc with built in bec. I personally wanted the 1500kv motor, and wouldn't of sold two of my neu's if I knew this a few weeks ago.
Now I am glad that I atleast kept one neu (1512 3d).

As sombody told: "You can satisfy one people but not many of them at once"

Be patient and for sure other motor options will come, 1500KV/1800kv/2200KV and everybody will be happy :)

"You can make some of the people happy, some of the time. But you can't make all of the people happy, all of the time."

2200KV is fine. I could even see CC keeping the lower KV motors for later just to keep the public from going past 6S for fear of killing their low cost neu style motor. Sooner (than) later there will be guy's like GriffenRU who will figure out how to run the MMM on 8S <warantee gone> and will need lower KV stuff, so castle will see the $$$ in putting them out.

As for a power packiage for converting 1/8th nitro's I thing 6S and 2200KV will be just right.

Castle would've satisfied 99% of people if they had just released the controller first and then worry about the motor.

I don't think they would. There are a LOT of other RC'ers out there who aren't brushless-brains, and who just want a powerful system to drop into their E-Maxx, for example. An ESC on it's own isn't going to be hugely attractive to them, as they still won't really know what motor to choose...and it's tricky. A combo, complete with motor, will be the perfect ticket for a LOT of people. Sure, many of us here would like the ESC on its own, but there's a whole other market for those who just want a complete system to drop in.
There aren't really an "ideal" big motors out there for the less knowledgeable guys; Feigaos are inefficient and fall apart, and Neus are nice but very expensive. The CC motor should be just the ticket.

I'm pretty sure those guys will have deep pockets too. They will need to do a lot of up grading for the drive train to hold up to all the RPMs and torque from what they'll be offering. Most people that are new to brushless woud've been fine with a cheaper motor to get used to it before going to a nice Neu or any other high end motor.

I can buy 7 feigay motors for the price of one neu.

A 1515 is about $280. Where can you get an XL Feigao for $40?

I see your point, but that's not what I mean. A great deal of people won't want to have to hunt around, working out which motor they should go for, etc; they just want a system to drop right in. Even if some did choose their own Feigao, you all know how easy it is for them to overheat in the wrong setup. Or just plain fall apart. And with the new E-Maxx, that's easy; it doesn't require any upgrades to handle brushless power (the new E and the MMM seem like the perfect couple to me!) Plus, the CC motor should be one of the first big motors to offer good efficiency and physical durability at an affordable price. :yes:

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Roll on the MMM!

I can get them for bellow that if I buy 100 units and that was in 2005. I'm sure I can get it for less if I try negotiating a bit.

I'm pretty sure you meant feigao motors :lol:

Price is a big issue for many people but if you are looking for a high performance system for racing then you will most likely end up paying a premium to stay competitve. The NEU motors are very efficient and if they can handle the higher rpm range as well then they will be very versitile as well. The Mega motors are another alternative for those with tighter pockets but want better quality than the feigao type motors.

I think if I were to do it over I would have gone for a 1512 instead of a 1515 for racing because I just can't utilize all the power available from the 1515 and I may have squeezed some extra runtime as well :oops:

I use a Mega motor for my smaller 1/10th vehicles

Which mega on the 1/10 scale?

Highflier

I am using the ACn22/35/1 which is overkill for a 1/10 ST but like my previous posts suggest, I usually go overboard when it comes to power.

ANy ACn22 series motors will work great in 1/10th scale car/trucks:
ACn22/50/* MT or 1/8th scale
ACn22/45/* MT or 1/8th scale
ACn22/35/* MT or 1/8th scale or large 1/10th scale
ACn22/30/* MT or 1/8th scale or large 1/10th scale
Car8+ MT or 1/8th scale or large 1/10th scale
Car8 MT or 1/8th scale or large 1/10th scale
Car8 Pro MT or 1/8th scale or large 1/10th scale
Car10 1/10th or 1/12th scale Car or Truck
Car10Pro 1/10th or 1/12th scale Car or Truck
ACn22/20/* 1/10th or 1/12th scale Car or Truck
ACn22/10/* 1/10th or 1/12th scale car or truck
ACn16/20/* 1/10th or 1/12th scale car or truck
ACn16/25/* 1/10th or 1/12th scale car or truck
Car 16 1/10th or 1/12th scale car or truck

The above is my personal reccomendations but you can check the specs for each at http://www.megamotorsusa.com/

Sure, but not many people buy motors in bulk! :na:

Yep, I agree 100%. I'm betting a lot of these setups are going to drop into the new 16.8v Emaxx. What's 16.8 * 2200?

Well golly gee, it's 36960 RPM. :lol:

I think that was most likely the reason for the motor choice with the package. I would say that more than likely the majority of MMM owners won't start off with a 5S LiPo pack. They probably won't spend $300 on a MMM and then $200 on a pack for it. That's more than the cost of the truck right there. But a 2200 will work well with a 14S NiMH setup, and be insane on LiPo when they do make the plunge...kinda like how the MM is now.

I'm pretty sure they'll introduce lower KV motors later. I know they came out with the 6900Kv after the MM launched. It's certainly possible for the MMM.

Sleeb

There is nothing wrong with high rpms with a quality motor. My novak hv4.5 for example is rated at 4800 kv unloaded. To be fair, I assume it drops to 3800-4000 kv under a load - still 55,000+ rpm on 4s. Geared properly, it's a touch faster than an overgeared 8xl at 20/51 in my ofna mbx which heated both the motor and the mamba max to 195 degrees in less than 5 minutes. I tested the limits of the novak motor and I got it to thermal in my 8ight geared 12/46 after 9 minutes of speed passes and the motor was only 160 degrees.

Neu motors are very similar internally to novak motors, so im sure they will be able to handle high rpm just find. IMO, the 2200 kv neu motor is very versatile. 2200 kv seems to be about right to be able to use almost the whole range of pinion gears on 4s. Gear down if you want less power. Then if you do want power, you can run 6s no problem. Since the neu motors are so much more efficient than feigao motors, you don't need to run 6s to keep things cool. 6s is only needed for maximum power.

Actually, I noticed that Neu is now selling the 1515 series motors for $245 smooth can and $255 for finned can versions. Not bad.

The only thing I can say here is that the intention for most people to go with the 6s vs 4s isn't the "more power" argument as much as efficiency. By reducing the amp draw with higher voltage things just run better. I have no problem with the 2200 motor except on 6s. Some people may be fine with it, but I feel it's outside the motor's ideal efficiency. Especially if you're looking to race. Otherwise I'm sure you could have a lot of fun with it. I mean heck, who wouldn't think it's cool to see a 1/8 truggy blasting by you at 70mph? :lol:

So I assume you are on the design team and have seen the efficiency curves then huh? So much speculation here when in fact NONE of us know jack about the motor other than KV. Knowing Castle's track record, I seriously doubt they would suggest 6s on a motor unless it runs good. If the efficiency suffers, then it will show up as extra heat when the rig is geared for the same final speed.

Like I said, the neu motors are efficient enough that you dont need to worry about running it in their "efficiency range." That was only true for feigao motors. At most power levels you don't need 6s to still have a very efficient setup. The mmm will still handle the amp draw of a powerful 4s setup (btw if the mmm can handle its own motor on 6s, it definately can handle same motor on 4s). That said, I don't see why people would have any problems running the 2200 on 4s for racing. As motors and escs advance, the benefit of running 6s vs 4s at a given power level becomes less and less, especially when the amp rates are well within the escs range. Although power loss is rI^2, the resistance of the motor increases by the square as kv increases. So a 1515 1.5y on 6s is theoretically going to create the same amount of heat as a 1515 1y on 4s at the same power level, because the 1.5y has 2.25 times the resistance.

Benefits of running 4s vs 6s are:

1. Bigger lipo cells holder ther voltage better C wise. So a 6000 mah 4s pack made up of 6000 mah cells is going to hold a higher voltage per cell at 60 amps than a 4000 mah 6s pack at 40 amps.

2. There is less of a possibility for one cell to go below the safe voltage in a 4s pack than in a 6s pack, unless you moniter each cell individually (most cutoffs dont).

In the end, you really do only need 6s for power. Is it better to have two motors or two packs? You can charge one while running the other if you do have two packs. I can only see the 1515 1.5 being absolutely necessary if the 1y is already too much on 4s.

Up front I admit to being somewhat clueless about the detailed workings of electric motors so please excuse me if I'm missing something.

The spec sheet that I have for Neu 1515 motors shows the 1Y rated at 110 max amps with an internal resistance of .006 while the 1.5Y is rated 70 max amps and .011 internal resistance. This equates to the 1.5Y having 1.83 times the resistance of the 1Y.

Based on the spec sheet the 1.5Y would have a power loss of 53.9 and the 1Y 72.6. While they are close the 1.5Y appears to be noticeably more efficient. Like I mentioned it is entirely possible that there are other considerations that make this not as simple as I think it is.

Based on user experience this sounds right but I cannot find any reliable documentation that proves it. (for that matter who has 6000mAh cells available today?) The discharge graphs proved by many pack builders seem rather questionable if there are any available at all. Whats worse is that there does not seem to be any standards when it comes to testing or rating lipo cells from one brand to another. Could you point me to any reliable data on cell discharge rates that confirms this claim?

I really don't think that this is a valid argument. Both motors are capable of creating almost the same amount of power at simular RPM's. I also don't think that anyone can reasonably argue that low voltage high current is more efficient than high voltage low current setups. If this was the case then everyone would be building rc's with ultra high kv motors to run on 7.4v packs right?

No "for sure" awnsers from me JGP, but I am impressed with your posting skills :)

I believe the consideration for me (aside from all numbers) is the idea that 2200kv motor is a good base for 4S-6S systems. I agree the rpm's are high for 6S but the ideal KV motor for 6S would not perform as well at 4S. I personally would rather have an overkill on 6S than an underkill at 4S.

Would be good day to have one guy with access to EVERY lipo cell out there test them all in one particular way and post the results for the world to see. What that one particular way is, can be disputed. Let alone the idea of one guy having all the lipo's to test. Same thing for all the brushless motors.

I'll volunteer to do all the testing if y'all will fund my paypal account so that I can buy one of everthing! :mdr:

Well, no, ofcourse I'm not on the design team. And I'll admit I'm no engineer on this stuff so I could be wrong here.

All I know is that if I run this 2200kv motor on 6s it will just have too high a top speed - even if I run a 9t pinion which is the smallest you can get. Under that condition I would be hitting 60+mph. So . . . to make a long story longer, it's just not my choice since I already have my 6s battery and plan on staying with it.

My understanding was that the higher voltage meant better efficiency from lower amp draw.

Oh, one more thing guys . . . my comments about efficiency are also geared towards racing. Like I said, the 2200 motor on 6s has a crazy top end even with the lowest gearing - not the most efficient for racing. That's all, just my $.02.