I happen to be in the market for a speedo to go in my B44, and I am running sensored in it because of the smoothness of the novak systems.


What i want to know is, is the Mamba Pro as smooth as the novak systems, and will it play nicely with the novak motors?

I am currently running a 5.5 on a mamba max( I know ), because my old novak wont handle a 5.5.

One if the things that I have noticed is the castle systems seem to have a really low current limitation, the mamba monster is 120, the mamba max is 100, but my XBR is 120 and a GTB is 540, does anyone know if there is a reason behind this or can the novaks just handle more.

Not Bashing Castle I just want a good racing speedo and those are some of the things to consider.

Novak over specs on the AMP rating trying to get people to buy it just because they see a big number on it. Castle rates their ESC n real rating of the MOSFETs. Going by some pictures of the GTB's MOSFET, the ESC is only rated for around 60-90A depending on the MOSFET used. Don't fall for over rated ESC.

Castle list true power numbers, compared to Novak.

dunno about novak motors, but the mamba max runs my sensored based motors nicely with the latest firmware. BTW, I run a 2.5T on the mamba max.

Basically it boils down to the ratings that they use. MOSFETS have several ratings some are continuous and others are pulsed. The pulsed rating is the higher of the 2. Temp plays a part in it as well that's why there is a derating curve for the Fets. The hotter they get the less efficient and power they can handle. If you look at that I think that Novak rates theirs based on Burst current. If you look at the MMM it's rated at 120A but the burst current was somewhere near 1000A.

I seriously doubt any of the speed controls will handle what they are rated anyway. If you draw 100A at 12V on a MM I doubt it would last more than a few minutes. Same with the MMM If you were to load it at 22V and 120A even with the fan in an A/C room set at 72F it wouldn't last more than half an hour. Granted these things run off of batteries, but to me a continuous rating it just that...


Jeff

Yeah i didnt think that the GTB can really handle 540 amps cont.

My 5.5 runs decently on a mamba max, but not nearly as smooth as it was with a borrowed GTB, obviously because of the sensored, but will the mamba pro be the as smooth though?

Also the mamba gets REALLY hot on a 5.5

I guess all sensored escs are the same "smoothness" (did I spell that right?) :p

I'm probably just overthinking it

Plus i think from the racing side pc programming is a plus, and it is sensored so it should be smooth enough.


What was it someone said about a feature were it raises the kv of the motor?

Not necessarily true. Firmware and processing speed will still have an effect on the outcome.

The thing about sensors is that they are only useful at 0-low rpm's, once higher emf feedback works better. Castle takes so much type tweaking their firmware I would believe that they will be far superior with the sensored MM Pro as well. Not too mention that it is programmable to a degree not seen on any novak ESC's.

Is the MM pro going to be running cooler than the original MM say in the same setup?

Do we have any new updates on release date?

most likely. newer components are usually more efficient...

I agree, but the temps i see on the mamba max after a 5 minute race are extremely hot. I don't know what it is but it just does not like my 5.5. The motor never gets above 150 in 5 minutes, and I have the timing just below average and the start power on high, but it will easily reach 180 or 190 in a race without a fan.

Hopefully the mamba pro is A LOT better with the heat, I plan on buying one, just waiting to see what the initial response is towards them.

Sounds more like a setup problem than the ESC is bad with heat - I've been running them in all kinds of cars from my lightening 2 buggy, revo conversion, erevo, rustler, and never had heat problems... what's the rest of your setup like? voltage? how many kv is a 5.5?

Novak specs their 5.5 at 7,400 RPM/volt:
http://www.teamnovak.com/products/br...spec_chart.htm

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but a Novak 5.5 ( around 7400 I think), I am running it on a Reedy 4800mah 2s lipo, and the gearing is 18/84. The gearing does not seem to be the problem because i have tried raising and lowering the pinion size and it does not help. I have run this car off of two mamba max's and they both ran hot. This motor ran fine on the GTB and My XBR and 8.5 never ran hot.

The only thing I can think of is something is binding, but i have checked and rechecked the bearings and my diff shimming and gear mesh's and they are all fine.

I REALLY do think it is the mamba's, because they are both fine, just run hot on that particular motor.

novak 5.5 has to be less then that if I'm not mistaken.. My 36mm quark 4t motor is supposed to be 6000kv.

Edit- whoops, that was a very n00b thing of me to say. Guess it all depends on more factors then turns...

The novak 5.5t ballistic motor is 7400kv, as stated in the previous post.

That sounds right on the KV. a 3.5 is right around 10,000 KV

I ran a 5.5 in my wheeler for months. And it never got hot, esc or motor (orion motor, and a LRP sphere, then a KO esc after) im not sure how your ESC is getting so hot

Yeah, I dont either. I HOPE there not something wrong with my speedo.

My mamba max (was using yeah racing 60A brushless esc) dropped the temp on my yeahracing 5.5 T 6000kv motor from over 60C to 48C with higher power output (higher speed and acceleration), better response (nothing to do with settings. Max setting/reducing timing on the YR esc doesn't even compare to the MM) and the thing that amazed me is how smooth the throttle is!!! My buggy can crawl at like 2 mph with no cogging using the slotted motor. I wonder how much smoother can a sensored system get. The down side is that it seems to be running a little hot even on 2S lipo. It is supposed to be rated at 100A continuous right? I don't see how the MM can do 100A cont without any advance cooling.

Hmm.. where do you stay? What's the ambient temp like?

I assuming your measuring current draw somehow to make that claim? I'd be interested in hearing more about what lead you to that conclusion. I've unloaded a 4600mah pack through an MM in under 4 minutes, which is an average current of at least 69A. It got a pretty warm, not too hot though. I had nothing to measure temp with, but it was 35C ambient so I always thought on a cooler day that 100A wouldn't be out of the question....

What is continuous? I used to repair/test amplifiers and most of them could not sustain their rated RMS output for more than 10 minutes without going into thermal, if you put a fan on them they would run for longer. Granted they are much less efficient than an ESC, but the heatsinking is HUGE compared to an ESC. This testing was done in a 72* shop with a Astron 200 amp power supply. These weren’t cheap amps either they were PPI/Orion/G&S (The HCCA’s forget it), Rockford Fosgate, Soundstream, A/D/S, and a lot of other high end amps and some cheap ones as well. The only ones I wasn’t able to thermal in 10 minutes were the ones made by Zed (Autotek/Hi-Fonics/Rodek/Earthquake). And I am not talking little amps I even had a Hifonics Colossus, and Zues and Autotek BTS7600 in for repair, Those were 900W-1800W amps

Are they rated continuously with a battery because there is no way that that small of a footprint will sustain than much power continuously? I know the heatsinking ability of the Mamba Max it sucks the heat right out of a soldering iron.

I'm just asking.

Jeff

I used to love my what so called cheating AMPs lol. I still have 2 25 watt cheating AMP, one is a Orion HCCA 225 and the other I'm not sure what brand it is, but it out lasted the Orion. I had a few of the HiFonics Colossus and a couple of Autoteks through my audio years and they were awesome. I now have a few more powerful AMPs, but don't have the desire for a loud system at the moment lol.

A lot of people are still confused about ratings and that;s why Castle and Tekin don't really post them. I like to use the term continuous peak or burst which will basically mean that. Example: Mamba Monster rated for 120A, use this for a max peak amp when in hard acceleration (A data recorder comes handy to set a base number). I know the ESC will easily go over that rating for an instant, but I rather stay safe. I'm still searching for a car ESC and motor that can provide a real 100A constant and handle the same continuous amps. It has to be small or about the size the pop tarts as I have the vehicle to accommodate one.

The castle controllers are advertised as industrial solutions that wouldn't necessarily be running from batteries, so I imagine their continuous ratings are accurate

see here http://www.castlespecialprojects.com...ntrollers.html for their industrial ratings for different kinds of cooling.

Note the 'mamba max pro' has max input of 12V and there is no regular mamba max. I think they have been calling that industrial version the pro - its been labelled as that for quite a while now.

I still have a boat load of older amps still to this day, but only have a Kicker L5 and a Soundstream Reference 500SX, and an older Sony cd player with some Boston 1" added to the rest of the stock system.

Heck I don't even think the industrial stuff is ready yet. I just checked into a system for a small conveyor we build and there aren't really any options, the only option I was given was PWM signal in just like a hobby system (Who uses that?); a switch that would activate the motor or the motor would run on applied power. Controlling speed was a problem and there isn't a way to communicate to it. The speed control had a great price and I was told for an engineering fee I could get it configured “anyway I like” Which I was perfectly fine for a custom, but the motor price was ludicrous, and apparently nobody wants to make you a custom motor unless you are buying 10K units. I could spend less on a VFD and a standard 3 phase motor for cheaper, but it wouldn't be as small. So I’ll stick with what we have until I find a better answer.

I know the industrial line has a larger heatsinks but unless they have a way to mount a larger heatsink I doubt they ones can handle it. I got a million questions about what kind of transient voltages I see and all these battery related questions. It’s an industrial application how many run on batteries everybody uses power supplies.

Ever see a 16 HP VFD? They are much larger and are not passively cooled, and they start out with 230V-480V so the current is much lower.

I guess I am just used to stuff running continuously, like 24/7, maybe a few days a year off, but all the time is what I am saying.

I know my MM will handle a lot I have run the 7700 combo bashing on grass on NiMH and never had a problem. I run A123 now and see spikes as high as 178 amps on my Elogger, and have run more than 10 minutes on 3S2P on a Fagieo 4436KV with spikes in the 140A range I have no doubt in a car it’s not a big deal but a loaded industrial application.

So what is continuous? Is there any standardization in RC?

Jeff

Ok now that is weird. I am using the MM in my 1/10 buggy that weighs around 1.7Kg. Using watts up meter for peak current. Peaks at around 73A on 2 S lipo so I am thinking that average current is probably alot lower. 10 - 30A I supposed. With a fan, temp taken was around 61C at an ambient temp of 30-32C. I was told that a 60C MM in a 1/10 is the normal temp. I guess that is normal then. But considering current peaking at 73A on high traction surface, I am not really sure if the MM can handle 100A continuous without thermalling. Maybe I have a defected MM? I just got it as a replacement for an old MM in a non-warrenty claim and it looks totally brand new. As far as I remember, the old MM wasn't running as hot as this current one. Maybe it is the new firmware?

Try using the highest timing possible when running novak type motors on the MM esc. There is about a 30 degree timing advance in the sensors so that is where you should shoot for.

I tested the rpm of my novak hv 7.5 on the Mamba Monster and the HV-Maxx esc. Unloaded kv on the MMM was about 2550 at zero degrees timing and 2600 with 10 degrees. On the hv-maxx, unloaded kv was around 2900.

The "continuous" discharge rating on our ESC specs usually does not mean "to eternity". What it meant years ago was "ability to continuously discharge a 2000mah battery at the stated amp rate", for example.
In other words, the "continuous" rating is not "a complete statement" in reality. When the cutting edge battery pack could only deliver 2000mah, for example, the "continuous" rating only needed to be capable of delivering the rated current for the duration of this capacity(100 amp rated cont. discharge of a 2000mah nicad pack would only need to sustain this discharge rate for 1.2 minutes to meet its rated discharge capability).
I am pretty sure that the 2000mah is not the capacity status quo of today, but there is a likely specific capacity attached to the continuous discharge statement(along with a given temperature, etc.). :)

Well that explains things a little better, I have always looked at these specs out of the corner of my eye. Thanks for some clairification on that. So who would like to chime in on the new spec?

Jeff

Any update on these? When should they start shipping? My hyper 9e needs a new sensored esc. :yes:

At Castle, we don't rate our controllers based on a battery size and lifetime. Rather, we rate our controllers based on temperature rise and stabilization. So if you look at something like, say, the Phoenix-ICE-100 (rated at 100A continuous) it can handle 100A for as long as you want to put 100A through it, and will temperature stabilize at about 80C (176F) with a 5mph airflow over the controller.

We decided not to put a current rating on our RC car controllers because we didn't agree with the way the industry rated controllers. There are controllers on the market that are rated at amperage levels that would actually MELT 12ga copper wire. (which is a ridiculous claim... most brushed controllers on the market that claim hundreds of amps of capability can actually only handle about 30-40A by Castle's rating method)

And so we decided not to get into an amperage "arms race" with companies that deliberately mislead the public.

They are scheduled for production on September 14th.

thanks for the update. I was hoping for a little sooner but I know it will be worth it. :whistle:

Light bulb! Great post Mr. Patrick!

How did Castle rate the MM?

Same way they rate the other car escs I imagine- their own testing method based on FET ratings at a certain temperature. If you look on the CC website, none of the car escs have an official rating on their products page, for the afforementioned reasons Patrick stated. Back in the depths of time these ratings were discussed a bit more and people could look up the part # of the FETs to confirm how accurately rated the MMM was for example; underrated if anything, but allowing overhead is always a good thing :yes:

OK, so that makes more sense to me, but according to your website there have always been current ratings for the RC car controllers. They have changed since I first started looking at the MMM.

The Sidewinder used to be rated at 100 amps, now it's rated "More than you can handle!"

http://www.castlecreations.com/products/sidewinder.html

The Mamba Max has been rated at 100 amps continuous and still is according to the website.

http://www.castlecreations.com/products/mamba_max.html

The Mamba Monster was rated at "More than you can handle", but now has a rating of 120 amps continuous*

*Full throttle continuous operation with cooling airflow

http://www.castlecreations.com/produ...a_monster.html

Before I bought a MM I ran a brushed motor and modified my Duratrax Streak (12V capable and 12 turn limit). I asked all the guys around here what kind of current draw I would have on different turn motors and no one knew; most would glaze over when I started ask any technical question regarding anything to do with power needed for a system. Well I started modifying the Streak to handle more power by adding a couple more fets and then I realized that the traces on the board were too small to handle more than about 10 amps, so I cut some copper sheet and added it to the power traces. I was running an 8 turn motor just bashing around in my Rustler. So I have always (at least the last 5 or so years I have been back into this hobby) looked at ratings like they were absolute maximums of the componets, like adding up the pulsed drain currents of all the fets in the system. It takes more than componets to make an ESC the traces have to handle the current,

It’s really hard to get good information in the RC industry. The only way I was able to get any information at all was to buy the Eagletree data logger even if it has a very slow sample rate to me it was better than nothing.

So, if I may ask how do you test your ESC’s? Is it a purely a resistive load or an inductive load, or combo, (I did see the resistor array in one of your posts)? Do you use a large motor with a brake to load it to certain amperage? Is it done at a set “RPM”, or varying (but with the same current load) since the impedance of real motor changes with speed?

Just very curious about this.

Thanks

Jeff

Well, let's start from the beginning.

The resistor array in the post was for a battery tester -- we don't use resistor arrays for testing ESCs. (We do use resistors for testing BECs -- and we also use resistors bank switching to test BECs under highly variable loads, but we don't use resistors for testing ESCs.)

When we do ESC testing, we have several options, and we test ESCs using all of these tests:

1. We have several testers that we call "Bucket test stations" where a large motor is submerged in light oil (in a metal five gallon bucket) with steel disks attached to the motor shaft. The steel disks rotating in the oil produce significant drag for testing at high constant loads.

2. We have what we call a "surge tester" where a motor is alternately loaded with a very heavy load and then a very light load. These load changes happen in a few milliseconds. The high loads are extremely high, and the low loads are near zero load. This test stresses the controller, and determines how well the controller handles rapid changes in motor load and RPM.

3. We have a Magtrol small motor dynonometer, which we use for efficiency testing, at varying loads.

4. And then of course, we test in target applications, with high rate dataloggers.


When we test ESCs, we have a choice on power sources -- most of our testing is done on a Sorensen 80-160 power supply (80V max, 160A max,) but when we need more current, we also have a Xantrex 20-400 (20V max, 400A max.) We also do testing with various Lipo cells and deep cycle Pb batteries.

When testing, the ESCs are placed in an airflow chamber, which simulates varying airflows. Usually we test with just a 5mph airflow -- but for some applications (like ducted fans) we may test with higher airflow. For some military and industrial applications, we test with 0 airflow.


Interesting that you mention the copper traces -- that's really one of our strong points. Our circuit boards are fabricated from 6 to 8 oz copper, and power boards often have 6 or 8 layers, sometimes with copper filled vias (depending on the application.) Our circuit boards often have 8 -10 times as much copper as other boards in the industry. The Mamba Max Pro, for example, is fabricated with an 8 layer board that has 6 oz copper on each layer. (6oz copper is 6 to 12 times as much copper as a typical circuit board.) The vias on the Mamba Max Pro have plating of a minimum of 2 mils of copper in-the-hole and a typical of 3 mils in-the-hole. And there are multiple dedicated planes for every phase. This makes for a very expensive circuit board -- but the losses in the circuit board are minimized, which allows us to handle significantly more power per square inch than our competitors. (And then, of course, we do all the circuit board assembly in-house -- which gives us tight control of quality...)

We also work with our circuit board suppliers to develop new production capabilities to continue to increase the amount of copper in the circuit boards without compromising circuit design. One of the designs I'm working on now uses an 8 layer circuit board with 6 oz copper on each layer with copper filled blind vias (vias that don't go all the way through the board.) Our circuit board manufacturers work closely with us to develop methods of producing high quality circuit boards with extremely high current densities and good yields.

That said, we have found that on some of the high-end controllers (very high power controllers -- like the Phoenix-ICE-160HV) the copper in the circuit board has become the real limiting factor. So, on some newer controllers we are using both high copper content circuit boards AND adding copper bus bars to the board. The ICE series uses copper bus bars to minimize losses in the circuit board copper AND has heat sinks bonded directly to the bus bars.

Thanx for the question!

Patrick

That bucket test station sounds interesting. I have this paint mixer picture in my head.

lol, expensive paint mixer! Good for those who simply must have brushless everything. :smile: