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-   -   Mamba Pro - for all you tech-heads (https://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20693)

whitrzac 09.08.2009 05:04 PM

sooo, when do we get gold circuit boards???

BrianG 09.08.2009 05:07 PM

Actually, silver is a better conductor. It just tarnishes easily. Gold is good for contacts due to lack of oxidation, but silver would be better for the actual traces.

brushlessboy16 09.08.2009 05:08 PM

right after the motors are chromed.

Bad Karma 09.08.2009 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianG (Post 319175)
Actually, silver is a better conductor. It just tarnishes easily.

Silver oxide is still a good conductor though.

BrianG 09.08.2009 05:18 PM

Really? I thought more oxidation=more resistance. At any rate, tarnished metal isn't as pretty as clean gold. :smile:

Pdelcast 09.08.2009 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Karma (Post 319179)
Silver oxide is still a good conductor though.

Yeah, but not as good as copper.

Silver is the best conductor, but it costs lots of $$$.

Copper is the next best conductor. Silver is about 6% better than copper.

What I'm waiting for is carbon nanotube room temperature superconductors. :yipi:

BrianG 09.08.2009 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 319209)
What I'm waiting for is carbon nanotube room temperature superconductors. :yipi:

Pshaw! That's easy. Just make the room VERY cold. :smile:

Pdelcast 09.08.2009 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianG (Post 319214)
Pshaw! That's easy. Just make the room VERY cold. :smile:

Yeah, like liquid nitrogen temperatures.... The air would "rain" as the nitrogen liquified... :lol:

BrianG 09.08.2009 06:34 PM

Just don't forget your jacket, hat, and mittens then! :lol:

J57ltr 09.08.2009 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 319114)
Well, let's start from the beginning.

The resistor array in the post was for a battery tester -- we don't use resistor arrays for testing ESCs. (We do use resistors for testing BECs -- and we also use resistors bank switching to test BECs under highly variable loads, but we don't use resistors for testing ESCs.)

When we do ESC testing, we have several options, and we test ESCs using all of these tests:

1. We have several testers that we call "Bucket test stations" where a large motor is submerged in light oil (in a metal five gallon bucket) with steel disks attached to the motor shaft. The steel disks rotating in the oil produce significant drag for testing at high constant loads.

2. We have what we call a "surge tester" where a motor is alternately loaded with a very heavy load and then a very light load. These load changes happen in a few milliseconds. The high loads are extremely high, and the low loads are near zero load. This test stresses the controller, and determines how well the controller handles rapid changes in motor load and RPM.

3. We have a Magtrol small motor dynonometer, which we use for efficiency testing, at varying loads.

4. And then of course, we test in target applications, with high rate dataloggers.


When we test ESCs, we have a choice on power sources -- most of our testing is done on a Sorensen 80-160 power supply (80V max, 160A max,) but when we need more current, we also have a Xantrex 20-400 (20V max, 400A max.) We also do testing with various Lipo cells and deep cycle Pb batteries.

When testing, the ESCs are placed in an airflow chamber, which simulates varying airflows. Usually we test with just a 5mph airflow -- but for some applications (like ducted fans) we may test with higher airflow. For some military and industrial applications, we test with 0 airflow.


Interesting that you mention the copper traces -- that's really one of our strong points. Our circuit boards are fabricated from 6 to 8 oz copper, and power boards often have 6 or 8 layers, sometimes with copper filled vias (depending on the application.) Our circuit boards often have 8 -10 times as much copper as other boards in the industry. The Mamba Max Pro, for example, is fabricated with an 8 layer board that has 6 oz copper on each layer. (6oz copper is 6 to 12 times as much copper as a typical circuit board.) The vias on the Mamba Max Pro have plating of a minimum of 2 mils of copper in-the-hole and a typical of 3 mils in-the-hole. And there are multiple dedicated planes for every phase. This makes for a very expensive circuit board -- but the losses in the circuit board are minimized, which allows us to handle significantly more power per square inch than our competitors. (And then, of course, we do all the circuit board assembly in-house -- which gives us tight control of quality...)

We also work with our circuit board suppliers to develop new production capabilities to continue to increase the amount of copper in the circuit boards without compromising circuit design. One of the designs I'm working on now uses an 8 layer circuit board with 6 oz copper on each layer with copper filled blind vias (vias that don't go all the way through the board.) Our circuit board manufacturers work closely with us to develop methods of producing high quality circuit boards with extremely high current densities and good yields.

That said, we have found that on some of the high-end controllers (very high power controllers -- like the Phoenix-ICE-160HV) the copper in the circuit board has become the real limiting factor. So, on some newer controllers we are using both high copper content circuit boards AND adding copper bus bars to the board. The ICE series uses copper bus bars to minimize losses in the circuit board copper AND has heat sinks bonded directly to the bus bars.

Thanx for the question!

Patrick


Wow that is just what I wanted to see. Awesome information! Thanks for sharing that kind of info, I don't think I would see that anywhere else.

The bucket test station uses shear forces to load the motor while cooling it at the same time. Nice!

If I may ask another question;

On your surge tester, how do you load and unload your motor under test? Using a slave motor, or is it inertial or… ?

You set my mind at rest with the amount of copper in the boards. I knew there was a lot, because when I needed to change the wires on my MM, I thought about breaking out the gun. I was really impressed with how fast the heat was being transferred to the heatsink.

Again thanks for the information.

Jeff

PS Any plans on the serial and digital I/O on the industrial controllers?

Unsullied_Spy 09.08.2009 10:46 PM

I heard lead becomes a superconducter at near absolute zero temperatures, just make yourself a better cooling system and start making the ESCs in China :lol:

littlegiant 09.09.2009 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 319209)
Yeah, but not as good as copper.

Silver is the best conductor, but it costs lots of $$$.

Copper is the next best conductor. Silver is about 6% better than copper.

What I'm waiting for is carbon nanotube room temperature superconductors. :yipi:

Talking about carbon nanotubes, I've heard that heatsinks made of carbon nanotubes fare better than Alu heatsinks. Will castle be using carbon heatsinks on escs one day?

Finnster 09.09.2009 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 319219)
Yeah, like liquid nitrogen temperatures.... The air would "rain" as the nitrogen liquified... :lol:

Perhaps better suited for the marine escs then? lol


w/o searching thru the last 10pgs, what's the answer on the MM to MM-Pro upgrade option?

Pdelcast 09.09.2009 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J57ltr (Post 319287)
Wow that is just what I wanted to see. Awesome information! Thanks for sharing that kind of info, I don't think I would see that anywhere else.

The bucket test station uses shear forces to load the motor while cooling it at the same time. Nice!

If I may ask another question;

On your surge tester, how do you load and unload your motor under test? Using a slave motor, or is it inertial or… ?

You set my mind at rest with the amount of copper in the boards. I knew there was a lot, because when I needed to change the wires on my MM, I thought about breaking out the gun. I was really impressed with how fast the heat was being transferred to the heatsink.

Again thanks for the information.

Jeff

PS Any plans on the serial and digital I/O on the industrial controllers?

I'd love to tell you how we load and unload the motor in the surge tester, but we consider that to be a trade secret (we spent a lot of engineering time developing the surge tester, and don't want our competitors to know how we do that type of testing.) Sorry!

Pdelcast 09.09.2009 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finnster (Post 319446)
w/o searching thru the last 10pgs, what's the answer on the MM to MM-Pro upgrade option?

There will be an MM to MMPro upgrade path -- but probably won't be available until we clear through the current order backlog.

Arct1k 09.09.2009 12:18 PM

Just a random guess but couldn't you wire up two brushless motors connected by a light flywheel and then use one motor/esc for power and the other motor/ESC for brakes...

Just a random thought on how you'd get the load to pulse so quickly...

ps dropped you an email about brushed drag brakes again...

J57ltr 09.09.2009 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 319453)
I'd love to tell you how we load and unload the motor in the surge tester, but we consider that to be a trade secret (we spent a lot of engineering time developing the surge tester, and don't want our competitors to know how we do that type of testing.) Sorry!

Thats cool, I thought it might be, but can't hurt to ask. I figured it would be something like a shorting and opening the windings of a slave motor, but like the question of how many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie roll center of a Tootsie pop, the world may never know.

Thanks again

Jeff

Arct1k 09.09.2009 01:27 PM

Thats effectively what the second motor would be doing the fets would be shorting the phases creating the drag - I wouldn't think you could short on the primary motor as you'd be shorting the esc...

brushlessboy16 09.09.2009 01:33 PM

Any chance at A MMM to MMP downgrade?

lutach 09.09.2009 02:08 PM

I'm reading some good things at this moment on Carbon Nanotube. A couple of comments in this article says, "electrical conductivity is sufficient for good EMI shielding and for replacing copper wiring for some application" and "the material can be further doped to increase electrical conductivity to enable conductor and EMI shielding application that require high conductivity". it'll be nice having traces handle extreme currents and also have the ESC run cooler with a awesome heat sink out of the same stuff. This thing has about seven time better thermal conductivity than copper on a per-weight basis. I've seen places making the nanotube, but in very small scale and this one company is making rolls of this stuff.

Edit: Also, how would one mate the MOSFET and other components to the nanotube traces? (Did some more research and found the answer, awesome stuff).

J57ltr 09.09.2009 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arct1k (Post 319475)
Thats effectively what the second motor would be doing the fets would be shorting the phases creating the drag - I wouldn't think you could short on the primary motor as you'd be shorting the esc...

That's why I said the slave motor. The primary motor would be driven normally the slave would be shorted to load the primary motor and ESC. I actually made a setup like this for the stepper we use in our Sonic conveyor.

I would short the stator windings and run them, the weird thing was that the faster I went the lower the load got. Now I just run them on an old conveyor with a 24VDC brushed motor with a wheel attached to the shaft and running on the conveyor belt. I vary the load with a 50 ohm 25 Watt pot. It loads the motor to it's 4 amp limit.

I have a lot of problems with these motors in the enviroment they are in and wish I could get a CM-36 sized motor with about 19Kv to run with one of the phenoix controllers (with serial I/O).

Arct1k 09.09.2009 05:41 PM

Oh ok - now i understand what you meant my slave motor - Thats exactly what I was thinking but with an ESC controlled slave...

Patrick mentioned IIRC that the load is pulsed ultra quickly - using a second ESC would enable this very easily as the FETS actually "pulse" break anyway...

rotary rocket 09.10.2009 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 285293)
Won't be anytime real soon -- I'm working on the MMM 8S and 12S controllers now... But give me a couple months... :mdr:

Any news on the 12S controllers?

I could not find a dedicated thread about them.

I really want to use one of these to power a 1/5 scale car.

TexasSP 09.10.2009 01:09 PM

The new Phoenix ICE HV models with car software is what you will want then.

kazuaki 09.13.2009 09:22 PM

I see Tower's expected date on these has gone from "mid September" to now being "late December". Is this an error, or has there been some delay?

micke_b 09.14.2009 01:30 AM

Sadly I think this is a cc tradition ... reminds me of Mamba Max and Mamba Monster. They say next week ... then the week after, then again. Then next month, or maby a coupple of month, next year even or was it 2 yrs ...


Don't get me wrong I really like castle products, have sevral of them. But they really need to stick to tier word or don't saying anything until their products are DONE!:whip:

Unsullied_Spy 09.14.2009 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micke_b (Post 320609)
Don't get me wrong I really like castle products, have sevral of them. But they really need to stick to tier word or don't saying anything until their products are DONE!:whip:

This is true, but when they don't give an estimated release date everyone is screaming for an estimate of when we can see it on the shelves. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Arct1k 09.14.2009 08:38 AM

Tower could have sold their allocation from the first production batch...

Pdelcast 09.14.2009 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazuaki (Post 320550)
I see Tower's expected date on these has gone from "mid September" to now being "late December". Is this an error, or has there been some delay?

I think that's because Tower has already sold their first 2000 units, which is all we would promise to deliver to them in September.

kazuaki 09.14.2009 11:40 AM

OK, thanks Patrick. I'll follow up with them since I've had it backordered for a while. Still looking at production this week?

Pdelcast 09.14.2009 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazuaki (Post 320673)
OK, thanks Patrick. I'll follow up with them since I've had it backordered for a while. Still looking at production this week?

Barring any problems, yes, production starts this week.

Unsullied_Spy 09.15.2009 05:38 AM

2,000 units just to Tower! :surprised: Looking forward to seeing these on the market.

gixxer 09.16.2009 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 320684)
Barring any problems, yes, production starts this week.

hoping they are out soon. my hyper 9e needs a new esc.

e-rev project 09.16.2009 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unsullied_Spy (Post 320868)
2,000 units just to Tower! :surprised: Looking forward to seeing these on the market.

you mean flea bay lol

micke_b 09.17.2009 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pdelcast (Post 320684)
Barring any problems, yes, production starts this week.

So are they in production now? Or are there problems?

micke_b 09.19.2009 05:53 AM

I assume there were problems ... really want one of these, hopefully it will be done until next summer.:whip:

TexasSP 09.20.2009 07:45 PM

Why do you keep commenting without any knowledge? How do you know there were problems? Patrick does have a business to run and just because he doesn't answer this thread every minute of everyday doesn't mean anything other than that he is most likely busy.

micke_b 09.22.2009 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasSP (Post 322114)
Why do you keep commenting without any knowledge? How do you know there were problems? Patrick does have a business to run and just because he doesn't answer this thread every minute of everyday doesn't mean anything other than that he is most likely busy.

I don't.

Im just a CC customer expressing my opinion, I assumed thats what these "support forums" are for. And I do have the same experience from both the Mamba Max and the Mamba Monster ...

I mean no offense ... I'm just excited about the Mamba Pro and which it was already available.

MetalMan 09.22.2009 02:29 AM

Well, keep in mind that these are the RC-Monster support forums, CC employees/owner drop by out of the kindness of their hearts :love:

whitrzac 09.25.2009 12:05 AM

sooo, if I send in a MM can I pay the $50 and get a MMP back????


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