Balancing
 

:neutral: When is the best time to balance???????

every time you charge?

every so many runs on the battery?

is it wise to balance and charge at the same time? I was told by another racer it's not.

Can some one please clear this up for me I'm trying to learn the proper ways with lipo's

the battery is 6000mAh 4s

Its fine to balance while you are charging. Some chargers allow you to network the balancer in somehow, but I haven't ever used one like that.

I find it is only necessary to balance my packs every 3 runs or so. Less if they are high-quality matched packs, like FlightPower packs. Matched packs keep their balance much longer without regular maintenance. When I do balance them I charge and balance at the same time. I don't see why someone would tell you it's not a good idea.

Thanks for the replies. I just asked him if he did both at the same time and he told me it wasn't good on the pack. My pack is a poly-rc pack. I figured I could get a right answer here.

I have a maxamps pack and the method balancer that maxamps sells andalways balance charged it. The one foolish time I ran it in a stock xl-5 stampede with no LVC, I ran it down just below 6v (2s). I freaked, charged it up above 6v with nimh charger, then finished charging on my lipo charger. Ever since that one time, it has never caused any of the cell lights on my balancer to light up. As if it's either not balancing or it's really good and balanced. I get no errors from the balancer, it fires up just fine, and just sits there not lighting up. I've probably used the pack about 4 or 5 times since. Any idea? Potentially bad? No signs of battery puffin.

If the capacity is still there and it's charging fine without any signs of puffing then you're good to go. 3.0V per cell is considered to be the minimum safe voltage for LiPo cells, as long as the cells aren't below that when they are at rest then the pack should not be damaged. I don't recommend that you do it again, though. :mdr:

I balance mine every time I charge them. Haven't stepped up to the higher quality cells so I think balancing everytime I charge it is a must.

I always balance everytime i charge my lipo's. I use flight power & trakpower lipo's . It does not take any longer to balance while you charge & it's better for your lipo's no matter what brand you use .

I always balance my packs as I charge them, each time that I charge them. It's safer that way, IMO.

Always here as well , even with top class lipos . Doesn't take any longer to charge or any more effort so why not .
Were did these guys with the idea it's no good got there info from , it does no harm and in fact prevents problems from arising with your lipos.

Good to here, its a 6000 mah pack and I most recently put 6655mah in. I charge at a very low rate (2.5a) as my charger is limited to that on 2s lipo and it cuts off at around 8.27v, always has. I just find it odd that it doesn't even respond to being plugged into the balancer.

Wow, your charger cuts off pretty low for LiPo. A 2s pack should be 8.4V when fully charged. It's taking more than 110% of its rated capacity too? Sounds like you have an mutant LiPo pack!

Yeah I know, probably because I charge it so low I imagine. Higher charge rate = higher pack voltage has always been my experience. Its a super brain 977, which is/was good enough for what I needed it for, maybe not so much now. No way am I gonna hang around and wait for an 8000 charge at 2.5a. And yeah that pack has always taken more than 6000, first time I charged it after using it, I charged in two sessions and did a total of 6400 mah. Unless it's my charger being inaccurate about things. I can plug my pack into my charger and it will read Xv, and pop it on my friend's charger and it will read a little higher. So maybe my charger actually reads lower in voltage than it actually is, thus the 8.27v.

Have you tried charging it on your friend's charger? At the full 1C rate? The pack should peak at the same 4.2V per cell no matter what brand of charger is used- unless the charger settings are incorrect or it's malfunctioning. If you don't need to charge anything over a 4s LiPo then I would go pick up a DTX Ice (or equivalent) charger. I've got two of them and they are probably the best for the money if you get them on sale. Another good choice would be the AstroFlight 109. It's completely automatic, but only works with LiPo cells.

I have Apogee packs and have never balanced them even after 25 runs.

I posted this quote, from Apogee's site, before but I'll share it again:

"For years we have sat quietly aside watching the proponents of "pack balancing" spew forth misinformation. The truth is that a properly matched pack will not require balancing. Yes, we're sure this is a shock to many of you who have fallen for the balancing gimmick. Yes, Apogee was the first to put commercial grade plugs on all packs due to customer demand. We've had and seen enough.

Pack balancing is a gimmick perpetuated by companies who make balancers, and by other companies who do not match battery cells within the pack. A properly matched pack will not require balancing, and in fact will mask a failing cell. Balancing is a band aid for companies who lack the proper equipment to do cell matching. All Apogee packs have been cell matched since the day we started.

Due to misinformation, more packs have been damaged during balancing than have been helped. If you insist on balancing a pack (If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, and you sleep better at night, have at it), please, please, only balance fully charged packs.


Why only balance fully charged packs? All properly matched cells are mated together so that the high and low voltages will coincide. There may be mid-point voltage variances. Balancing a partially charged pack can cause the high and low voltages to become unbalanced. Again, please, if you insist on the balancing gimmick, please only balance fully charged packs."

i still dont agree. id rather slowly damage my pack than have no house.

I hook up my packs to the balancer before I start the charge. If they are really close to being balanced, I start the charge. If they are a little off, I wait until they are really close before starting to charge. Either way, I balance everytime.

I can see where apogee is coming from. I don't balance every time. I think it depends on how many cells that are in the pack. I did see a new esc somewhere that plugged into the balancing plug to use all the cells voltage appropriately or something.

How can Apogee say you never have to balance , doesn't make sense .

I know myself when checking the batteries sometimes they are slightly out of balance and on the rare occasion when not run for a while are more out of balance .

Isn't what they are saying dangerous ?

start rant

Come on guys, did you read this quote or just skim it cuz it doesn't seem like you're getting the point here.

No where in the quote does Apogee state that you don't have to balance un-matched cells sold by other manufacturers as they don't speak for other manufacturers but what they do say is that you don't have to balance Apogee cells. I can attest to this as I have never balanced my Apogee cells and after 25 runs they are still balanced. However, I have Kokam and maxamps packs and I do have to balance them as I too don't want to burn down my house. The point Apogee is making is that other manufacturers either don't know how or won't spend the money to make quality matched packs that won't become unbalanced thus the entire balancing market is basically a big rip off to the end users because the end user must buy extra devices to correct the crappy un-matched packes sold by (enter manufacturer name here).

Another thing to note is that Apogee packs are made of Lithium Manganese which does not cause thermal run away so if you did puff an Apogee pack... oh well.

Apogee packs don't cost much more than other brands and they don't require balancing and they have never caught fire due to thermal run away.

If I had to start over, I would have only bought Apogee packs as I'd rather pay a little more than pay less and constantly worry about my lipo packs bursting into flames from a cell getting over charged/discharged.

/end rant

I thought cell phone batterys were lithium manganese and 3.6v max.. Apogee seem to be 4.2v peak. Strange they dont make anything higher than a 3s and 20c max. Doesnt say anything about weight. How heavy is one of your packs relatively ?

I'm not positive about cell phone batts but I think they are Lithium Ion cells like Laptops. Laptops and cell phones can get away with using lower C capacity cells because they do not require the const current a vehicle does.

As far as the Apogee packs available, it depends on what mAh Apogee packs you're looking at. The 5800 mAh are only available up to 3S but the 2200 mAh and 3800 mAh are both available up to 6S.

I run 2x 4S 2200mAh in series or parrallel depending on the vehicle and each pack weighs approx 8oz.

I may run 6S2P 2200mAh in my 8th scale whenever the MMM shows up.

I run FP packs exclusivly and I use a Hyperion 0610i charger with a builtin balancer so it is no extra effort to balance while charging, but I have tried charging and not balancing for about 3 charges and than tried to balance and only minimal discharging was needed

I use the 610iDuo and charge and balance my collection of Neu 30c 5ah packs each time. Never tried it not balancing. Never tried just balancing after charging. I just stick with whats working lol... those apogee are interesting ! Sound like a safer lipo. Maybe ill try a couple for my nephews who want to get into RC more. As it stands I have to charge/balance, hook it up in the car, turn it on etc. New stuff that makes it easier would be nice to feel better about letting them do it on their own. These kids are complete nintendo generation mindset. I had them mow the back yard and the mowed my hose, an extension cord and eventually the pull cord to the mower. No common sense lol Some apogee with a built in LVC like the trinity lipro's would be a real nice option.

Apogee is spot on for normal use. Even packs that are not very well matched will be in balance when ful if they started out that way.

I won't say that I never balance, but do check my packs at least once or twice a year. If they need it then they get it.

The nice thing about balancing every time is that it desn't hurt anything.

Yah.. don't want to risk expensive $200-500 packs you know.. I balance each/every time I charge... no matter what...:yes:

Exactly!

what is the range to be considered in balance? Example, within 0.0-0.1 volt difference, 0.0-0.05, or 0.0-0.01 between cells?

Also if using a voltmeter to varify the voltage readings on the cells would I touch the red voltmeter probe to the red balance wire and black to each of the black ones?

I'd shoot for 0.01-0.05v between cells. 0.1v is too much.

To measure each cell:
Cell 1-Red probe to red wire and black probe to 1st black wire next to the red one.
Cell 2-Red probe to 1st black wire next to the red one and black probe to 2nd black wire.
Cell 3-Red proble to 2nd blac wire and black probe to 3rd black wire.
And so on...