Castle 2200 on 4s or 6s
 

So me and a couple others are having a little debate over which would be better with the Castle motor.I would love to hear what someone from Castle,and others has to say about it.IMO 6s puts the motor to high in the RPM range for everyday bashing.For occasional speed runs it should do good on 6s, but 50000 rpms seem to high for every day bashing.Since I have no Neu,are they happy in the 50000 rpm range?Actually it would seem to me like 5s would probably do good,maybe the sweet spot?But still a little high?

I ran the NEU 1515 1Y on both 4S and 6S yesterday...
You are right in that it pushes the RPM to the upper end of the motor specs.
4S is around 35-40K which would be a sweet spot IMO. Geared at 22/56 on 4S puts you in the mid 40s for speed. 6S puts you at about 60MPH with still a LOT of torque to lift the front end up and over even while already moving at 40MPHish. Hitting the throttle of 6S from a stop would either burn up the slipper rather quickly, tear up your tires rather quickly, or tear up the drivetrain quickly. So, even if you geared for slower speeds, the torque increase will just be too undriveable.

Sounds good though!

I always get standing forward or backward flips when I blip the throttle :na:. My slipper is still intact but I did snapped an output shaft on my gmaxx tranny before.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...Picture095.jpg

I think its really about he power level you want. 4S is good power, BB nitro-like speeds with more TQ and accel. Very drivable and reasonable on the drivelines.

6S on a 1Y is like an A-bomb. Over the top power and likely to cause a driveline meltdown if left in the wrong hands. Extreme care is advised.

So it comes down to what you want. If 45mph is fine, and looking for trackable speeds, then go w/ 4S. If you want a out of control driveline shredding wheelie monster, then go all out on 6S.

Plus if you have it geared for 60mph on 6s you will need good lipos to do it. I would say that enerland 6000 25c cells would be best, or a pair of smaller 6s packs in parallel. Maxamps users need not apply here...

Most have great success with the 1y on 4s. I have a 1.5d on 4s and it is a bit much. I keep gearing it up and it never really gets hot, but the lipos are getting warm. I would like to pick up a 1y and see how it does. For 40-45mph in a MT I think it would be just fine...

I'm using the CC 1Y on 4s in the truggy (hyper ST) for racing but am just about to swap out tonight the 2.5D for another CC 1Y into my G3R on 6s2p A123 for bashing.

I already upgraded the Diff to hybrids so I think the input shaft will be the weak link...

I fully agree. The 1Y is much better on 4S and seems to run stone solid with great temps.

My only reason for pushing 6S was to just push in the MMM. 60 in that thing is dang near flight lift off. Phaltlines are now pretty much unglued, the Slipper smoked a little, so I know it's a recipe for destruction.

Great thread! All of the responses so far are spot on.

One of the things we do at Castle Creations is answer the question "What is too much power." We can’t seem help ourselves. The 1515/1Y Neu or our 2200 Kv motor (same basic motor) on 6s, IMHO, is an example of too much power. It is a car breaker and uncontrollable in anything but a straight line. While it will break cars, the power system will survive. These motors are rated to 60,000 RPM. The RPM the motor will reach on 6s will not damage or degrade the motor, just the car. I do not find 6s very much fun; in fact it feels like standing in a large parking lot shredding $100.00 bills. It is too much or just plain stupid power.

4s on the 2200 is the sweet spot. It is drivable, race-able and will eat Nitro for lunch. It is just plain fun and makes you giggle as you drive.

Our 2650 is actually a Neu 1512/1Y not the 1.5D. The Neu 1512/1.5D is a 3300 Kv motor, which will be a monster on 4s and needs really good batteries as it will pull massive amount of amps. Our 2650 is for lighter 1/8th scale buggies and IMHO is a handful on 4s. It is, however, capable of 6s as long as you have some expendable cash and the wrenching time.

Important note: When running a Neu D wind motor set your ‘Motor Timing’ in the ESC to ‘Lowest.’ According to Steve Neu these motors don’t respond to timing but with higher settings can cause battery and ESC problems.

Bernie

very good write up, i was running my castle 1y on 5s in a truggy, pure insanity. quickly found out that my wheels werent balanced well... :D

That's exactly my next task.. Wheel balancing.

I was actually standing inthat very parking let yesterday! :whistle:

I just hopped off the phone with bernie, what a great guy :D

Told me everything i could ever need to know.

Its funny scaring all the nitro guys with a near silent truck...


As I told bernie, its fun beating up on the nitro guys..... toasting them in a drag race, then realizing your throttle epa is only at 80%... :yes:

How do you guys get such low motor temps? My 15151y was getting to 150-165 ish when it was like 75 out. Its only geared to about 38mph. Now I dont do speed runs just constant racing and bashing is that why?

I have had my motor up to 150 or so, its the castle 1y though, could you have a fault in your motor?

Hmm could be. Im about to put my 60mm medusa in the truck. If it runs cooler then the Neu has to be sent in for a checkup lol.

edit, it was geared for about 55, think that would be worth mentioning:whistle::yes:

Eh, I don't think its that bad. Esp for harder bashing and racing. Spd runs actually keeps things cooler, but the dynamic nature of racing/bashing tends produce more heat.
How is the setup? If you are driving in the grass, driving very hard, or have heavy tires or such I would expect it to get up there in temp.

How is the esc temp? If its quite cool you may want to gear up a bit and put more load on. That can help sometimes depending on what's going on.

No worries, anything equal or less than 165 degrees has no negative affect on the motors. Two things control temperature, gear ration and motor timing. Unlike other systems lowering timing advance on our systems does not really affect performance. It affects motor efficiency. There might be a mild hit in performance but when you already have too much torque it is not really noticeable. I always run 'Lowest' timing as I don't like wrenching or worrying about equipment. Try it, you'll like it.

Bernie

I wonder why gearing lower increases brushless temps? You would think less load less heat. Do they just not like to spin free?

Thanks Bernie ill run her at 160 and be happy lol

I am looking at putting all ceramic bearings on my e-revo. Will it void warrenty if I get a good set of ceramic bearings for the castle 1515 1y? If not what ones would be recommended?

if you talking about the truck itself, stay stock in my opinion. Ive tried boca ceramic and acer and they all lasted half as long as the stock traxxas ones.

weird....i run the 1515 1y/f in my 8ight on 4s 5000mah zippys/neus/thunderpowers geared 15/45 and after 3 straight packs the Mamba monster=165 the batteries=95 the the motor=130......as always check for binding.... :) oh yeah and i don't run a fan on my v1 mambe monster.... :) just the CC BEC

WOW Dragonfueled , I didnt expect to hear that:surprised: So much for them being better? I guess Im not going that route. I had boca ceramics in my xxx-t mf2 and they were awsome but it doesnt abuse bearings like a mt does. Thanks You just saved me alot of money:yipi:

I dont think they are sealed as well. The trans was fine but anything that encountered dirt went south pretty fast

Does he have any recommendations for the Y wind motors?

The ones for the xxx-t were sealed with a rubber gasket?

I must have misspoke. Small pinion large spur equals low hear, large pinion, small spur more heat. Lowering pinion size lowers heat. Lowering timing lowers heat with less change on performance.

Bernie

i run my 1y on 6 cell lipo and its crazy:gasp:weelies this all i can write:lol:and 57mph of fun:yes:very nice settup but (i think to powerful for beginner on 6 cell)


mamba monsterv1 90f(30min)motor 120f and the lipo are 97f:whip:

On my 2 pole feigao 7xl the timing is worth 1.5mph in each direction. I have gps'd it. At lowest timing I'm 37.5-38mph, next timing 39-39.5 and the next up was around 40.5-41mph. I havent tried highest timing yet but I have heard 2 pole motors are most efficient at the highest timing.

I will be running the 2200 on 4s as I have too much money invested in 2S packs. I've just decided that 45mph is fast enough for an MT. I cant wait for this motor to come out. My 7xl is insanely fast. If everything I have been reading is true then this motor puts it to shame.

So were these and were very smooth. After two races they were very gritty and after that they started failing.

Bernie I know what you ment I just hear allot of people say that if xxx motor is geared to low it will run hot. Maybe its a myth ... Also about timing , Medusa says run there motors at 8-15 for best effiency. Should we still run those on 0?

So it seems the general concensus is that 4s is gonna be the best option for everyday driving.Geared for around 45 you should be able to run this thing all day.So what would be the sweet spot for temps?I know that as they warm up there efficiency seems to increase,till you hit the point that temps start to hurt performance,what point is that? My hypothesis is around 140.

my 1512 2d on 4s in a buggy gets easily up to 150, most of the time its a 150-165 after 6 minutes of racing... any suggestions? gear up or down? im geared pretty low and its a large track, but im barely at full throttle ant the end of the straight... what concerns me, is, its a track which requires constant thottle, around 1/4. this is what is heating it up, the rest is tiny blips before and during jumps and down the straight. kinda the wrong place but o well. its written now!

ambient was anything from 30C to 35 in the shade... in the sun it was 50+C!!!

Jerry,

I use lowest timing on everything. It is OK to run a Y wind at standard timing but going above that gets things pretty toasty. Mamba motor timing is dynamic, it changes continually based on the speed and somewhat the load on the motor. This is because a sensorless system is continually monitoring the motor itself, not sensors. Changing timing advance with a Mamba system changes the range withing which the timing changes not a set point. Most of the range in each setting overlaps with the other settings. This is why changing timing had more affect on motor efficiency (temp) than power out.

I, personally just set timing to lowest and forget about it. If I want to go faster I add another cell. Usually, I don't want to go faster.

Bernie

The CC neu has huge bearings, very smooth and metal sheilded, i dont think they need replacing

With these motors performance does no fall off with heat. Performance doesn't change until you get above 200 f. Then the magnets start demagnetizing which ultimately will be fatal for the motor and ESC. Heat stabilizes after 5 to 10 minutes of hard running. We pick 165 f as safe after a hard 5 minute run because temps have stabilized by then and at 165 you are not going to slip over 200. Don't go all anal on your temp sensor, mine has a plus to minus error range of over 5 degrees but it is good enough. As long as after 5 to 10 minutes of hard running you motor is less or equal 165f go drive and have fun, no worries.

Bernie

If the castle motors are close to the Neu's, the difference will be unbelieveable, think :surprised::gasp:

I to had heard there was a sweet spot, in which a brushless motor would run. My mambamax 4600 for example, with 20/87, the temps were 190*, but with 24/87 it runs at 160 most of the time. I think it has something to do with spinning on dirt and hitting max RPM for voltage. I think it wants to go faster, but the voltage kind of brakes it a bit, kind of like a voltage choke for a slot car. I hope you understand what i'm saying.

From the good news in jay ski V3 thread and this one, I hope to soon have a Brushless E-Revo, to kick it with my G2R

A good brushless motor has a very broad sweet spot -- and the Neu designed motors have a REALLY broad sweet spot. It is so broad, in fact, that the performance doesn't drop off at all when you push it TOO hard. So you have to be careful with temperatures....

Just make sure you don't exceed about 220F or so in normal usage.

220, Wow it will handle the heat. So is there any chance we might see a smaller version of this motor,then the 1512,say 1509 range?