What would you do?
 

I sold a pair of Protek lipos that only had three runs on them. Yes, really three runs in my B44. Before I shipped them, I charged to 7.8 volts (they were 2 cell packs), though I didn't hook up my balancer. The buyer used the first one with success and had the second one swell and his esc (Novak Goat) fry as soon as he turned on the switch.

I feel very bad, but am not sure if I should accept any responsibility and offer partial refund. I never abused these packs in the three runs I put on them. I'm also concerned because he didn't actually do the charging, his friend did. I really don't feel in any way responsible and he hasn't asked me for a refund, I'm just wondering if I shouldn't for some good mojo.

What would you guys do? Also, what do you guys think could be the cause of the problems? Could over-volting the Goat from overcharging the packs be a likely cause?

If he didn't use LVC it might have caused the swelling. Get more info, analyze it again, then decide. If it was a freak accident, help the guy out. If it was user error, give him your apologies and any advice he needs.

Fried as soon as he turned on the switch? Highly unlikely if he successfully ran the other pack.

A single fully charged lipo cell is 4.20 volts, when overcharged, things begin to get critical at 4.35 volts. Let's look at this. 8.4 volts fully charged, absolute max before swelling, 8.7 volts. Almost ALL ESC's have some tolerance to being over volted. Especially if it's just .5 volts over.

If it were overcharged much more than that, you would have known it. Even without testing.

An ESC failure will damage a Lipo pack. And it not necessarily be the battery's fault. A short inside the ESC, faulting wiring, or a locked motor will produce the same results.

Something smells fishy. If I were you, I would ask alot of questions and get more information.

Knowing what voltage each cell is at, inside the "faulty" pack would help alot also.

Lipo packs that are over-discharged, or over drawn amperage-wise will puff also.

Don't blame yourself, and don't be too quick to blame the Battery. It is most likely, setup related.

It's one thing if he charged them and could tell you the specifics of how he charged them. With him having a friend charge them, there's really no telling if he did something stupid or not. Unless he specifically asks for a partial refund, I wouldn't even think of offering him one unless he can specify the conditions in which the pack was charged prior to his use of it.

I don't think you're responsible for it.

Lipos swell for 2 reasons, over charging and discharging past their rated limits.

So he either over charged the pack, or shorted it. I doubt the goat can pull enough to over discharge the packs during use.

My guess is that the esc crapped out and took the pack with it, he should have unplugged it quickly and saved the lipo.

Or they charged the pack without a balancer and really overcharged one cell.

Either way it is his fault, I would tell him to read up on lipos before he kills the other one. I have sold alot of lipos, and I figure that people buying them know how to use them. If not then they should not buy it. Kinda like blaming Jack Daniels cause you got drunk... really your own fault.

OK, here's more information:

http://www.teamnovak.com/products/es...oat/index.html

GOAT BRUSHLESS/BRUSH CRAWLER ESC SPECIFICATIONS
Forward/Reverse: Forward, Drag Brake, Reverse
Input Voltage: 4-7 Ni-Cd/Ni-MH cells (1.2V/cell) or 2S Li-Po cells
On-Resistance: 0.0012 ohms* (brushless per phase); 0.0012 ohms* (brushed)
Footprint: 1.18” x 1.54” (30 x 39 mm)
Weight(w/o wires): 1.49 oz. (42.2 g)
Rated & Braking Current: 120 amps* (brushless per phase); 120 amps* (brushed)
Power Wires: 14-Gauge
BEC: 6.0 volt/5.0 amp
Motor Limit: 18.5-turn (brushless); 27-turn stock motor (brushed mode)
Discrete Steps: 512 Forward; 512 Reverse
Battery/Motor Plug: Tamiya (battery); None (motor)
Voltage Cut-off: 6.25 volts (when Li-Poly Cutoff Circuitry is enabled)

So this ESC does have a LVC IF it was enabled.

Here's an exerpt from Wikipedia on charging Nimh. (Simply to show the voltage tolerance of this ESC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_...ydride_battery

Charging

NiMH Charge curve - The charging voltage is in the range of 1.4–1.6 V/cell. A fully charged cell measures 1.35–1.4 V (unloaded), and supplies a nominal average 1.2 V/cell during discharge, down to about 1.0–1.1 V/cell (further discharge may cause permanent damage). In general, a constant-voltage charging method cannot be used for automatic charging. When fast-charging, it is advisable to charge the NiMH cells with a smart battery charger to avoid overcharging, which can damage cells and cause dangerous conditions.

So the Novak Goat ESC works with 7 cell Nimh packs. A fully charged 7 cell pack will be at 9.8 volts when you first pull it off the charger. Plenty of tolerance for a 2S Lipo pack.

The Pack in question probably encountered a HUGE Amp load (dead short) OR No Low Voltage Cutout was used. If No LVC was used, then it was ran until completely dead.

Personally, I think if the ESC fried, the current while doing so damaged the pack. Simple as that. Unfortunate, but part of the risk/fun really...

I will bet that if we could see the esc it has terrible soldering and either the battery or motor leads shorted, and the moron in question left the pack plugged in. Or maybe he just left it plugged in overnight, but that would not cause the esc to go POOF...

Either way I hope he learned his lesson, cause it was expensive:lol:

If anything, this sounds like Novak's fault and you should tell him to contact Novak... Other than that, you shouldn't (and can't IMO) do anything about it since it's not your fault.

I would Man up and take care of it!. :whistle:Not that you want to hear it :no:, but that just what I would do..:yes:

One thing my DAD always told me is a MAN is MAN as long as he keeps his word,:eyes: once a MAM losses his word he is no longer a MAN..:oops: I live by this statement but that just me..:angel: Sorry I'm different! :na:, just ask anyone.. :lol::lol: :intello:

Best of luck in what ever discussion you make..

The only way you would have any reason to feel responsible, or get any bad mojo, is if you knowingly sold something you knew to be bad....and you didnt. Its not your fault if he did something wrong on his end. I feel bad for the guy because we all know what its like to have crap go wrong, but I dont see how that makes you responsible for his misfortune.

So how often have you sold something and given a refund/partial refund for something that the user broke or misused after they received it? It's one thing to work out something with the buyer when they can accurately describe the circumstances of the failure, but with them not being the one who charged the pack, how could the seller possibly feel responsible?

I agree with Hoov, you know if you did something wrong and karma will come kicking in your door. If you sold him 2 nice lipos barely used and he messed them up thats his problem. I personally would tell him to send me back the lipos and refund his money just so I dont have to listen to his crap. I get enough B.S. from my wife lol

I also think your clean based on the information given. Idiots are everywhere and can mess anything up. I always get suspicious when "friends" are involved in the mix with no specifics.

Thanks guys for the input. The only way I even remotely feel responsible is since I didn't balance them that last charge. I've kind of been holding out to see what Novak says, as it seemed to happen instantaneously when he turned on the switch. Sounded like a short or reverse polarity to me. The buyer has not been difficult in any of this, I guess I'm just a bit of a sympathetic sap sometimes :)

This is getting interesting. Tonight , for the first time, he got upset and accused me of printing labels myself for the packs. This is because AMain (they were Protek packs) doesn't have these anymore. I have better things to do than go and spend $100 on custom printing just to sell $70 worth of lipos. I still want to hold out and see what Novak says is the cause. I can't help but think it was a reverse polarity issue, frying the esc which momentarily drew enough amps to swell the pack.

Time to stop answering his email or other communication. Honestly the label thing is a wild swing for him. I am sure he knows what he didwrong, and is just hoping he can pull the wool over your eyes. He bought the lipos, and he damaged them.

Now is sounds like TDC would pay for them, maybe forward Shauns email addy to your buyer:na:

JK, I find ole Shaun's "man up" post funny. I could understand if you sold the guy crap, or something defective, cause that happens. I would notworry about it. I am sure the guy wired his setup incorrectly, or did not set the lvc, or his friend charged the lipo incorrectly. Sounds like they have a decent nitro back ground... No idea about electric!

Hey,
If you don’t want an honest opinion don’t ask for it!,:yes: but just because my opinion is not the most favorable or fall in line with the mass does it give you the rite to criticize my judgment LINC?? :oh: Did I criticize yours or anyone else’s ??:whistle: Am I now ???:no: NO I’m not, does that make me a better man NO (hell NO!)!, It just proves that we all are different individuals with different outlooks on life… :eyes:

I told you I was different!, … and I proudly stand by my earlier statement, I would simply MAN UP! and move on.. But that’s just ME!..:angel:

I'm different!.. :lol::lol:

Just poking on ya buddy! All joking aside you definately have a different outlook on life, but that makes you the great guy you are! We are all different, and that is what makes this forum great. I hate to see nice people (like you and pb4ugo) get taken advantage of by questionable people (like myself!).

Not criticizing your judgemnt Shaun, but I am not sure the Man Up clause fits in this situation (my understanding of it anway...). I know you would definately go out of your way to make anyone happy, and that is why you are such a great asset to the forum, and a good friend to have.

Maybe i am jaded... I have sold so much stuff (1000+ transactions on ebay and god know how mch over the various forums) and have had a lot of great sellers and more than a few lowlife dumbasses. Like I said, I hate seeing someones good nature being taken advantage of, and I think the best tool for teaching someone a lesson is to let them figure it out on their own dime.

Shaun, you definately do not fall in line with the masses! Thats what makes you the crazy old bastid you are! Now pour out another glass o wine or kettle one screwdriver and take a few hits!

ok PB4 give me the guys email, forget you ever knew me, or him and try not to read the paper for a couple weeks

Hey tdc
 

Hey man don't let ole linc get to you like that Shaun. He is just yanking your chain like he always does. Yes you are different just like Leo Gets in "Leathal Weapon". Your not better, or worse. You'r just different. We get it Shaun, and we are glad that you are here with us. Hey linc I would be watching for the battle truck to show up at your front door. You hurt his feelings you Bas#*%$(.:na::rofl::lol:

The bottom line here is this. If you sold him the packs in good faith knowing that they were in good/fair shape, then you have nothing to feel bad about. It does sound as if something was done wrong on his end for sure. Any of us would be upset, but that is not your fault. Now the whole accusation of putting the fake labels on them would really piss me off. Just because he had some bad luck does not give anyone the right to make false accusations on anyone. He obviously got that crapp from someone else who does not want to man up like the main Lipo brand supplier or Novak.

Look we all know if you buy something second hand you are taking an inherant risk, because there is no warrenty to fall back on or garuntee of any kind unless agreed upon during the sale of the item. Sure anyone would be pissed if it arrived puffed in the mail or just never showed up, but this is not the case. He received what you sold to him, which by the way closed the sale between the two of you, hooked it up and puffed the ESC and the Lipo on his own. Lipos are a risky business and I personally would never purchase second hand batteries no matter how good the deal seemed. If you deal with used electronic stuff you are asking for trouble. Spend the extra cash for new from a reputable supplier, and have piece of mind. If that is out of your allowance, then you are getting into something that is out of your means to afford in the first place. We would all love to have the best of everything R/C, but we have to be realistic about what we can afford.


[QUOTE=TDC57;251647]Hey,
If you don’t want an honest opinion don’t ask for it but just because my opinion is not the most favorable or fall in line with the mass does it give you the rite to criticize my judgment LINC?? Did I criticize yours or anyone else’s ??:whistle: Am I now NO I’m not, does that make me a better man It just proves that we all are different individuals with different outlooks on life… :eyes:

I told you I was different!, … and I proudly stand by my earlier statement, I would simply MAN UP! and move on.. But that’s just ME

I'm different!..

so true, thats generally why I dont sell anything to anyone on here, just pay shipping and its yours, then if its broken no hard feelings, what if I bought a lipo off one of you and cried it broke. No telling if im a tard or its legitimatly broken. Who wants to get into that fight

:oops: Sorry!! I’m sorry if rubbed anyone the wrong way!, :yes: it's been long day and I’m probably a little sensitize..:whip: MY BAD!.:yipi::rofl:.. NO hurt feeling sir.. :intello: I should have just shrugged it off on moved on… :whistle: :wink:

I'm just getting to be a bitter old man.. hahhahahaaaaaa...

Have a great week everybody!.. :party: :na:

Dont think thats how it was meant bro, just men getting away from their wife IMO lol

Not your fault Shaun! I started it anyway! I'm like that smart ass kid who makes the little girls cry on the playground by throwing sand in their faces...

Your not bitter or old dude (although you are no spring chicken, but neither am I). At least we are not paranoid like JJ:whistle:

There I go, stirring the pot again...

Hope you have a good day tomorrow Shaun, and hope to see you down here soon!

HEY im not paranoid, its only paranoia if they really arent following you

New nic name.
 

Hey Leo Gets. No harm no foul. I doubt that anyone on RCM would purposely hurt you Bro. We all try to be the class clown at times, and sometimes it hits just at the wrong time. Didn't you and Linc hang out one afternoon? then you should know how he is ya old fart. Anyway if we cannot have fun here what kind of world would it be? Both of you are great guys to have on here and that is that. "Can't we all just get along"???:lol::rofl::rofl:


[ Sorry!! I’m sorry if rubbed anyone the wrong way!, it's been long day and I’m probably a little sensitize..:whip: MY BAD!.:yipi::rofl:.. NO hurt feeling sir.. :intello: I should have just shrugged it off on moved on…

I'm just getting to be a bitter old man.. hahhahahaaaaaa...

Have a great week everybody!.. :party: :na:[/QUOTE]

Look behind you.... I can see you!

Good call Jerry, you need to be our "voice of reason" when it comes to BS matters such as this, set us straight! I have a feeling my statement that started this sounded much better in my head when I was typing it than it turned out...

Anyways we are still cool (me an tdc) he is my boy (word) and I always look forward to having a few drinks with him when he comes to LA...

please Linc I heard you couldnt keep up and were the (god forbid) sober voice in that altercation

Just set the record straight!.. :whistle:
I’ve got nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for Lic / James,:yes: we get together usually once a month and always have a blast.. James would give the shirt off his back for a friend, he’s extremely intelligent individual and all around GREAT guy!.. I’m just having a BAD day and lashed out at James for it!.. :oops:

I’m sorry and yes I’ll see in few weeks James and buy a drink!..:intello:

P.s.
The thing that I cant understand (but that’s life) you rubbed me wrong, and I end up feeling like crap for responding too it!..:oh: YOU Bastard!..:rofl::rofl: :na:

Have a great one everybody and I’m sorry for side tracking the thread..:whistle: Again MY BAD!..:no:

Dude, quit giving yourself such a hard time!!!! Its all good, range rover all wood baby!:rules:

Don't beat yourself up about. You are a much better man than myself when it comes to being a gentleman and a scholar... Don't feel bad about calling me out! Someone has to do it, cause usually JJ is too drunk to make any sense when he types...:rofl:

And JJ, I can easily outdrink Shaun, and possibly you too (not really sure about that, but I am up for the challange). Then I could easily throw up for 4-6 hrs straight, so beat that!!!! I do not have the desire to "over-do" it like I used to, but I still enjoy the stupidity that comes with a good bunch of drunks!:yipi:

LOL and I try to stay sober

Funny.
 

Look behind you.... I can see you!


Now that was funny. I near pissed my pants when I read that Linc. You crack me up. At least if we do upset one another we can laugh about it later and usually before it becomes a real issue. I am sure that the Mods are always saying to themselves here they go again. Plus I always get a kick out of how we hijack these threads and change the whole agenda. Oh well, what can we do? Go for a ride in one of your chairs Shaun and have a drink.

HAHA, grown men pissing their pants, now that is humor! Glad you got a laugh out of me Jerry. If only one person finds me funny it was all worth it...

Hey, as long as you try, that is all that matters. Hell, who cares, drink all you want and then yell at the neighbor kids while you stumble around in your boxer shorts and slippers!

Dude you are spying on me, that is exactly what I do :lol:


Jerry Ill sign on in the morning and Brian must have wasted 20 minutes putting my sentences back together

Hhhahahahahahahaaaaaa you guys crack me up!....I should send you all video cams and then we could get together and really have some fun.. LOL.LOL.. to much fun on one site.. Thanks for the smile and the readjustment, it's just what i needed!..

Works for me.
 

If that does not work we can all get together somehow and slap you around for a while. Or just have James slap you for us.:rofl:

So long as hes not wearing a dress