going brushless (savage x 4.6)
 

i have made a decision. nitros only run right in the winter where i live and i want to be able to get full performance year round. i am sick of constently tuning and paying $40+ per gallon of nitro fuel. my savage will go through a gallon in just one weekend of bashing. i want to go brushless for a few reasons.

i love my rustler vxl (minus the low durability)
i love my savage x 4.6 (minus the nitro)

pros:
with brushless, there is no engine maintenence or rebuilding.
much more consistant power than nitro
no more high-price nitro fuel
no more worrying about being able to start the engine.
longer runtimes
no annoying engine clutch issues
no more neighbors plotting to destroy my savage (noise issues):lol:
projects are always fun
watching the nitro savages at the LHS eat my savage's dust :intello:
selling the nitro components will give my budget a little boost
i could run my t-maxx as electric with my savage's motor, esc and batteries by getting an e-maxx motor mount

cons:
drivetrain wear increased
i'm still looking for the right low-cost setup
not sure of battery mounting
i'm on a low budget for this project
have to lock tranny (don't know how to do that yet)

i think the benefits heavily outweigh the downsides

this is what i have so far:
i am going for a 4s setup
kershaw designs motor mount
rc-monster pinion gears
hobbywing ezrun 150A esc and 3674SL motor or the 4465SL if budget allows
rc-monster motor heatsink (the 3674SL is the same size as the feigao xl series)
two of these velcroed to the sides of the TVPs
or
these batteries if they will fit inside the stock TVPs
i might be willing to get the xl chassis plates so i can mount the batteries inside the TVPs like that one guy with the xl TVPs and the GST tires who is running 6s on a CC MMM combo.

and i plan on getting the $38 charger on hobbycity as well.

what do you guys think? i guess this is a conversion for 2 vehicles. if the 3674SL isn't enough for my savage, i'll just get a medusa motor or the 4465SL for my savage and use the 3674SL on my t-maxx.

I would go for a medusa motor and I would stay away from the kershaw designs mount. Just my opinions. I'm looking forward to seeing your conversion!

If you run the xl setup and the kershaw mount you can put the lipos under the motor behind the tranny. That seems like the best way to do it, and the lipos are well protected in a crash.

You could also buy the flux battery trays and possibly the flux chassis. Either way the kershaw mount is about the cheapest way to get a motor mount.

I did a savage really cheap, go thru my threads and find it. Made the motor mount myself, and used some FD battery trays (I would not recommend them). I left the 2 speed and mech brakes, you can do that or lock it in 2nd, or get a flux tranny off ebay (technically locked in 1st gear).

Quite a few ways to do a savvy.

what's wrong with the kershaw mount? i haven't heard of anyone complaining about it before. the mount is a quarter inch thick!

also, i would like to mount the batteries inside the TVPs under the motor.
linc, do you think those 4s 2200 lipos will fit in the stock TVPs? they are 101mm long.

if not, does anyone know just how much space i'll have for batteries under the motor if i were to upgrade to XL TVPs?

Kershaw just has really bad customer service and some of their stuff is over priced... Or am I thinking of fine design? Or both? :neutral:

On a std length chassis you only have about 70mm to work with behind the tranny. With the Xl setup you can get full sized 140mm packs to fit.

Kershaw are ok, I have never had any issues with them. I had one of the savvy mounts and there was nothing wrong with it.

Fine Design have customer service issues, I would never buy from them again, took him 1 month to ship me an item, not including shipping times...

i've heard of issues with the direct drives that kershaw is selling, but i've heard nothing but praise about their motor mount.

has anyone tried mounting the flux battery boxes on a standard x chassis? i might just do that instead of getting the xl chassis plates.

alright, i have made the first step in converting my savage. i bought a used KB45-8xl motor. the original owner grinded the shaft down to 5mm so normal 5mm mod pinions will fit it.

this is was was included:
the motor
a heatsink
18t mod1 5mm pinion

i already e-mailed dan @ kershaw designs and will be getting a custom motor mount that is just like the one he sells but one side will have a 30mm bolt pattern to fit the KB motor. He told me that he's used the KB45-8xl and said the motor puts out about 40% more power than the CC/NEU 2200kv motor. it is 45mmx77mm. the only downsides are the mount size and shaft size. i already have those problems solved, so, i'm good to go as far as the motor for my conversion.

i'm thinking about the mystery 200amp esc. i've seen that it is rated for 4s and i've also seen that it is rated for 6s. is anyone here familier with this esc?


i think my biggest issue is still how i'm going to mount my batteries. any suggestions?

i picked out my batteries finally. i'm getting 2 5000mah 25c 3s zippy flightmax lipos to wire in series. i am getting them and the motor mount at the same time from kershaw designs. he bought the batteries to use in his e-revo, but they are too wide, so he is selling them to me for the same price as hobbycity. they are unused and unlike hobbycity, i don't have to pay $30+ shipping and i don't have to wait for them to be back in stock.

the motor mount will be the same as his standard savage x mount except for one side being drilled with a 30mm bolt pattern. now, i can use standard fiegao sized motors as well as the KB motors.

as far as battery mounts, i'm thinking about buying an e-maxx chassis (old style) and cutting the battery trays out of it. then, i'll just drill holes in the TVPs and the battery trays and mount them. i'm goingto need some sort of spacers though because the tranny gets in the way in the left side of the truck. what could i use as spacers?

also, i know the batteries are too wide for the trays, but i plan to cut 1 of the walls out of then and use velcro to hold the batteries in place.

Sweet. I will be paying close attention. I also have a Savage X (4.1) that I'd like to eventually do a conversion on. Looking at also running the KB45 from OSE, mounts unsure, and I also would like to see how the batteries are mounted on your setup. BTW nice find on that used KB45. I'd love to learn how to cut down the shaft to 5mm....

whats OSE?

the original owner of the motor hasn't told me how he did it, but i think it could be done by using a dremel while spinning the motor using an ESC. i will let you know how i like the motor and will be sure to post videos.

you could make your own mount by using aluminum angle stock or you could get one custom made like i did.

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/categories.php?cat=14

Pretty good pricing IMO. They stock the KB45 for $45.

update:

i got the motor in today along with the pinion gear and the motor is massive. it must weigh a pound. i compared it to my dented vxl motor and it must weight 3 times more than the little 36 sized motor.

That sounds awesome! Give us some pics when you can... I can't wait to see this run!

Pictures would help!

i got my zippy 5000mah 25c 3s packs today. i tried to fit them in my rustler and they were too wide. as far as mounting them on my savage, i'm thinking about getting an aluminum plate that is a little wider and longer than the batteries and drilling slots for velcro straps.

i also got the motor mount. Dan messed up. instead of drilling one side for 25mm bolt pattern motors like the feigao and one side for 30mm bolt pattern KB motors, he drilled both sides 30mm. it's better than both sides being 25mm as i already have the KB motor.

i took the front endbell off the motor and found a few small pieces of magnet on the front of the rotor. i was unable to take the rotor out for some reason. i put the endbell back on and hooked my vxl esc and a 6 cell nimh battery and spun the motor unloaded for about 5 mins. the motor's temp had raised maybe 5 degrees and it ran smoothly so i'm not too worried.

i got a rough prototype running today. i mounted the motor mount, the $30 esc i got from hobbycity, 2 25c 5000mah 3s lipos in series, and the KB motor. i plugged it in and i got no response. i then remembered that the esc has no BEC, so i threw my orion 1600mah rx pack in and off it went. after a solid 10 mins of speed runs with a top speed of about 50-55mph, the motor was at 170F, the esc was at 160F, and the batts were at 95F. the ambient tempurature was 90F.

i never did achieve top speed because the stock savage x tires balloon a lot and the truck was too unstable. i actually flipped the truck over with the esc sticking out of the top of the plastic roll cage and i already got a nice dose of road rash on it.

the charger i am using is the turnigy accucell-6. it works great. very accurate.

i did not lock the gears. it was able to shift and so far, there are no problems with the tranny. i will post pics and possibly a video tomorrow or monday.

Nice,mind showing the link for the esc you got?
Also what is the gearing?

Sounds like your gearing is a bit high with those temps. Drop a few teeth on the pinion.

Nah, KB motor explains the temps. They like to run hot.

He has the kb45 8xl... I am surprised it is running that warm. Maybe little to no airflow? I had the l can models in my gtp and they never got much over 140f...

Ok found out that your probably using the supersimple 100a esc...Its says max current
is 120a,though those 3s 5000mah 25c lipo deliver 35c bursts,so thats comes to 175A?Wouldn't that means its to much load?Could someone please explain,as i may use this esc for my conversion.

they can deliver a max of 175 amp burst but the motor will never draw that much current. probalby draws no more than 100amps at the most. the motor only ask for what it needs and the esc gives it. only time you get high am spikes is under initial acceleration and i think when you stab the throttle but once you get moving the amps drop down a bit just to keep the truck moving. probably can have some one else explain better.

nothing wrong with that explanation..
I'd certainly get batts that sustain 120 amps, with a good surge like 175. It's a fair rating for a savage combo

yes, it is the supersimple esc.

i loosened up my gear mesh and it ran consistantly at 145F. half throttle will violently flip the truck over. if it had a wheely bar, it would do standing backflips at about half throttle. it has more balls than the flux. the top speed is not as high though. i left it 2 speed for now. i ran for almost 45mins with the 3s lipos in parellel today. top speed was about 15mph because it couldn't shift into 2nd gear.

i am glad i bought a 1400kv KB45-12l motor when i ordered the esc and charger. the 1400kv motor is smaller and will hopefully be more controllable. runtimes with that motor should also be pretty good.

Ok thanks for the explanation,i dont want to highjack your thread thoughim going to go for the fiegao XL with the supersimple esc..
Scarletboa what is your gearing?Im still deciding on my gearing as well as which size feigao to use.
A vid would be great!

my gearing is 18/47. it is geared pretty low in first gear. when it hits 2nd gear, it gains a bunch of speed. if you do use a feigao xl, i recommend the 10xl on 6s lipo. it will run cool compared to the 8xl or 9xl and it will draw very little amps. i think the 10xl will only pull about 63amps max. if i were you, i'd get the feigao 10xl or 11xl (58amp max) and 2 3s 3000mah 20c lipos from hobbycity. the batteries only cost $25 each. or, you could get just 1 6s 3000mah 3s 20c pack. for that setup, you would only need the 70 amp supersimple esc.

for the feigao motors, leave it 2 speed and use a 14-16tooth pinion with a 47tooth spur.

Ok great,i will probably go with the 10XL,i was originally thinking of using the Zippy 3s 5000mah 25c packs,will their be much difference in preformance/heating over the 3000mah 20c packs?
Also for gearing,i realise you recomend around 15t pinion,though the CC2200 has a hgigher KV rating,and is geared higher(25t on 6s),are you sure i will get enough top end with a 15t Pinion?

the zippy 5000mah 25c packs are the ones i'm using and even with the monster motor i'm using, the batteries don't even heat up to 100F. if you don't mind the extra weight or extra money, get the 5000mah packs. they are THE best value for the money.

or, you could get the 20c packs for a little cheaper if money is a big concern. i still think the 25c packs are the best value though.

Hmmm ok sorry one more question lol..I just realised the fiegao will be $87US shipped to Australia,the CC 2200kv being $150.With the fiegao,lipos would cost me $100(3s zippy 5000mah 25c) though the cc2200kv could use zippy 4s for just as much power which will cost 60us for 5000mah 4s 25c)
So the zippy 4s with cc 2200kv will cost about $210
Fiegao with zippy 6s will cost about $187.
I will be running the supersimple esc,mech brakes with stock 4.6 tranny,will the tranny hold up to the cc 2200kv?Which option do you think i should take?

I say you buy the MMM 2200 combo now, and save up for two 3 cell battery's. There is really no replacement for good technology and I say get it the first time around instead of taking the cheap way out and regretting it later.

the reason that i recommend a lower gearing is that the flux tranny has the same gear ratio as the nitro tranny in 1st gear. when the nitro tranny hits 2nd gear, it gains a ton of speed.

Even if the supersimple esc fails its only $30 gone to waste...
Hopefully the tranny wil hold up with the cc2200kv which i plan to use.
Howmuch amps does the cc2200kv pull?

From our testing about 200A on 4S and 350A+ on 6S during acceleration. Average draw at top speed is about 50A on 4S, and about 80A on 6S (at 50mph.)

the cc2200kv motor is rated as a 120a motor, meaning that 125a or higher constant rate batteries are ideal. my KB45-8xl motor is rated as a 150a motor and so far, the batteries mentioned earlier are holding up well and temp at 100F after a run. my spare motor (KB45-12L, going in next week hopefully) is only rated at 100a.

according to a brushless "expert" i've been talking to, the KB-L series motors are about equivalent in power to the CC2200. the KB-XL motors supposedly have 40% more power than the CC2200 motor. the XL motor is complete overkill, even with the cheapo esc i am using. if i had a wheely bar, it would be doing standing backflips at half throttle. the only time i hit full throttle was when my slipper clutch was very loose. hopefully the KB45-12L will be a little less violent. i will be sure to compare it to the cc2200 motor at my lhs once someone finally gets their batteries for their flux.

Ok thanks for the info...i would really like to save money by getting 2 3s 3000mah 20c packs,so your certain they won't overheat,nor the motor?Also would there be much power difference between the 20c 3000mah and the 25c 5000mah?

naynay, you should be fine with the turnigy 15c (actually 20c-30c) packs. just don't gear too high.

update on my savage:

the esc is now toast due to physical damage. i didn't have it secured in my rustler and wasn't using a body, so when i landed upside down, the esc smacked into the pavement pretty hard. i plan on buying a EZrun 150a esc as they are only $100 and they can handle more current than the mamba monster esc. they use the same mosfets but the EZrun has more of them.

also, i finally decided to lock my tranny into 2md gear. it was actually much simpler than i thought it would be. all i had to do was take the top of the tranny off and then lift the gears out. i JB welded the clutch. now, when i install that new esc, i will have reverse and motor braking. also, now i don't need a rx battery or a brake servo. also, i'll be able to get rid of the brake assembly. that'll be a nice amount of weight removed from the truck. i'm guessing about 1/3 of a pound.

i also noticed that when my truck shifted into 2nd, it never jerked like most trucks do. i found out it was from the motor shaft spinning inside the rotor. i'll try to JB weld the motor shaft to the rotor later. i'll also be sure to get pics and possibly some video once i get my savage running again.

update on my savage:

i finally got a proper esc for my savage. i got the EZrun 150a esc. soldering the 10ga wire with 4mm bullet plugs was a bitch, but i borrowed a more powerful soldering gun and got it wired and ready to go. it fit perfectly under the motor on top of the purple engine plate. i hooked up my 3s lipos in parallel for a quick test run only to realize that the rotor had separated from the shaft in my KB45-8XL motor. i then finally overcame my laziness and hooked up my brand new KB45-12L motor to the esc with the lipos in parallel and used the trim on my radio to spin the motor consistently while i took my dremel to it. i used my pinion gear to check the size every time i let the shaft cool down after reaching 150-160F. i somehow managed to grind the shaft to the perfect size without any spots being ground too much and then made a flat spot on the shaft for the set screw. i unplugged the lipos and plugged them back in with my series connector. the esc gave 6 beeps as it recognized 6s lipo and as soon as i gave it throttle, my series adapter exploded at the solder joints and the esc let out a ton of smoke.

also, in that tiny burst of throttle, the motor spun backwards and caused the JBweld holding my tranny in 2nd to break loose. now, i need to chisel out the broken JBweld and try to repair it. all these setbacks are making me remember the "good days" of my savage. it always ran flawlessly when it was nitro. it never gave me any issues.

i have terrible luck when it comes to brushless. i opened up my vxl esc after it has been giving me nothing but problems and 2 of the 3 caps have a brown spot on them (i'm assuming their fried) and traxxas wants $45 to fix it after it has been fixed twice by them already. my vxl motor now has a dent due to plastic motor mount flex in my rustler. my cheapo plane esc broke due to a somewhat minor impact. my KB45-8XL motor's rotor detached from the shaft, and now, my nice, brand new esc smoked itself.

the good news is, nitrorcx is willing to exchange my esc. all i have to do is fill out a form and send it in. i'm really impressed with their cs.