Inside my full scale AC brushless motor
 

Hey guys, just thought I would post some pics of the inside of one of the motors I have for electric car conversion. It's an AC induction machine, so obviously it's brushless... but the reason I opened it up is because I have to put different (sealed) bearing in it, rather than the open type that are in it (because they were oiled from a planetary gearbox built onto the motor).


Cheers!

I would love to put that in my Saturn... :lol:

I've been thinking about converting my daily driver over to EP for a while.

Holy crap! I'd hate to be the one to lift that rotor out... must weigh a ton.

I like shiny!


That is one huge bearing

I just checked out your project very cool. What are you using for a controller/inverter?
Any more info would be cool too.

How come all of the metal tools and the spray can and stuff arent sticking to the side of the giant magnet. I have to imagine that thing must have some serious pull.

could I put one in my E-Revo with an MMM on a kajillion S:lol:

What is the spliting maul for!!!

The magnetic pull can't be that great or how the hell would he have gotten the rotor out of the can in the first place? Still I would think the spray can would be attatched to it. IDK?

Is the core a permanent magnet, or is this an induction motor? I would think it's an induction type, which would explain the lack of attracting any ferrous metal within a city block! :smile:

Cool motor ZPB! Do you have any specs on it? Like kv, max rpm, max current/power, etc?

Those Siemens motors are built very nice. Siemens is one of my client and I asked them if they could make a compact, but very powerfull drive system and I'm still waiting for an answer. Good thing I have a few military clients who are in the industry :lol:. Just got to come up with the huge amount of $$$$ to get what I need done :lol:.

To open up the motor of course!:lol:

Not sure what model he has, but here is a spec of the 1PV5135WS14 model:

Make/Model: Siemens, 1PV5135WS14 induction
Type: 3 phase EV AC PM synchronous motor
Rated / max voltage: 215V / 380V
Rated / max Power: 45 kW 61.1hp / 78.4kW 106.6hp
Rated / max RPM: 3,500 / 9,700
Rated / max torque: 120 Nm 89 ft-lb / 190 Nm 140 ft-lb
Max current: 400 A peak 282 A rms
Dimensions mm: 425x245 x245
Weight (motor only): 91 kg 200 lb

The inverter was the Siemens Simovert short (6SV-1) and here are the specs:

Maximum power: 100 kW
Max input voltage: 380 V ±2%
Input voltage range, nom*: 110...350 VDC
Input (battery) current max: 282 A
PWM Switching frequency: 6 kHz
Output current, max (RMS/peak): 282/400 A
Size and weight (aproximately): 25x10x5.5 59lb
Efficiency: 92%
Main contactors: In separate box
DC-DC converter: Integrated
Protection: IP-54

I also have a picture of the inside of the inverter and the manual if anyone would be interested in that.

Hey ZPB, Glad to see some progress on the full scale conversion. Have you had any more luck sourcing the controller? I remember that's where you were stuck when I last talked to you.

No, it's not magnetized at all really.

I've seen this in the forklift AC motors at work. This is also something that throws a monkey wrench into the gears of my understanding.

I realize these are sensor based motors, but I've always wondered a few things:

#1. How does the stator conduct magnetism in such a way to get rotation? I'm sure it's in the winding. Please point me toward more information on this.

#2. Can these be used in a sensorless setup? Do they Generate enough EMF to go sensorless?

Hey Etischer!! I've been following your build on another forum. How funny to run into you here. BTW, we need an update over there, I know some people are very interested in your project. See you! :)

haha, nope, not Tischer here, I just used his one pic of the rotor itself, i thought i made a note on it but i guess i neglected. my bad.

But, I am in the talks with him about getting a HOMEMADE inverter for the project, yes homemade! The guy is good with IGBT's and elbow grease!

Haha... that is funny. Well, quite an interesting project nonetheless. You guys are insane... homemade gear of that magnitude?! Best of luck :D

Wow, I didn't expect so many admiring the motor, beauty for sure!

Yes, like Brian said it's an AC Induction motor, and like Lutach posted the specs of a very similar motor, mine is only slightly more powerful (110hp @ 360volt), and lighter (175lb). It's the S20 version, new version maybe? All the Siemens number naming makes no sense. Crazy Germans.

By now you probably know this answer?

Hey man, yah, progress, if you want to call it that! :oops:

ETischer is the guy (Eric Tischer), if you missed it in my last post, I might get an inverter from him, homemade from industrial inverter and some great big IGBT's.

Hey Lutach, you wouldn't know where I could get a hold of a Simovert Inverter would you? My plan when I bought these motors was to use the Simovert, but Metricmind (North Am. distributor) can't sell the inverter WITHOUT a package motor... nonsense if you ask me. Just puts a hamper on electric car development, you know?!

It's either we buy a MES-DEA inverter (Swiss made), $5500, and he doesn't gaurantee it to operate properly, and we can't change the software parameters either to make it work. Sad situation really, so we are trying to get rid of the motors somehow.

Can some one please post some links to some good forums on full size vechile conversions?

I'll send Siemens and e-mail, not sure if the electronic components I sell to them goes to the automation devision that makes the Simovert Inverters. You can also look into an AC Propulsion, Saminco, Aveox, Semikron, Sevcon (Depending on voltage you plan on using) or Curtis (Depending on voltage you plan on using). I contacted Brusa to see if they were able to make a 500KW inverter, but all they said they could do was 200KW+.

Edit: Forgot to mention M.S. Kennedy, they have 3 models under motor controls page 2. Not sure if they are a complete system, but it's worth a try.

http://www.evforum.net/forums/
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php (I've seen RC-Monster's member(s) there)

Thanks Lutach, I didn't know you were so connected. BTW, it's Automotive division... ;)

BRUSA is a joke if you ask me, for SURE they have the best components out there as far as quality and compactness (inverters are small), but the price.... :surprised: $22,000 for a 100hp motor?! Come on, and $9000 for there 50kW inverter! How do they expect that to be feasible? If they are going to charge that much, then at least make some high powered units, something around 250Kw+.

Saminco, there inverter is not powerful enough. Aveox doesn't have anything. Semikron, nor Sevcon, I couldn't find any inverter at MS Kennedy, it think you were looking at an IGBT pack, the powre stage of an inverter.

AC Propulsion, I would love to use there system, $22,000 for motor/controller package, with built in 20kw battery charger, 220hp. They designed the power propulsion for the Tesla Roadster.

The best motors though, are made by UQM, they have a 125kw (167hp) motor system which weights 90lbs! $22,000 for motor/controller package. If i had the money, I would use it in my other EV project (light weight, high performance car) targeting 1000lbs curb weight, with at least 120hp, should get you from 0-60mph in < 4 secs, I'm aiming for 3 seconds. Won't be too hard with such a light weight. I'm also thinking of implementing a 10kw generator for long trips, with 200+mpg.

I've been trying to make my own electric vehicle since 1994 when I started messing with brushless in R/C. I was too young back then and now people are too greedy and prices have gone through the roof. They don't have the automotive devision anymore. The Simovert is made in the Automation Devision, I might be wrong as they have a lot of devision and plants spread around the globe.

Brusa is a joke, but they have the product.
Try this: http://www.isecorp.com/ise_products_.../inverters.php.

Saminco has made inverters for record speed runs. Aveox can make motors for good for 150Kw and controllers good for 800V and 200A http://www.aveox.com/Products-Controllers.aspx. Semikron has the Semistack for Automotive use http://www.semikron.com/internet/index.jsp?sekId=356. Sevcon has the espAC http://www.sevcon.com/pages/espac.html, but it's only good for 80V, but you can contact them to see if they can make one for higher voltage. Curtis Model 1238, but same situation as Sevcon. Here is the info on M.S. Kennedy motor controller: http://www.mskennedy.com/client_imag...les/4850re.pdf, http://www.mskennedy.com/client_imag...les/4851re.pdf and http://www.mskennedy.com/client_imag...les/4852rd.pdf. Kelly has brushless controllers too 120V 200A cont. http://www.kellycontroller.com/. UQM was also an option, but their price is up there. Raser Technologies makes some good stuff too http://www.rasertech.com/. There are many others in other countires and there's the system I'll be using for my super car which I can't give that info out :lol:.

I just have tons of info on this subject and I can go on forever :lol:. Here is a very nice conversion: http://www.electric7.com/.

As for my electric car, I shared some of the basic info with a top engineer at Flextronics Brasil and he was impressed. With one of the ideas I have he calculated a range of close to 500 miles at a speed of 65-80MPH. This was calculated with the weight of a Corvette. The drive system has enough power to push the Corvette to over 200MPH incase any one tries to bring out the "Electric are too slow" crap.

Yup, me and you are quite similar as far as knowledge on this subject goes, except you have a few extra sources I don't. Really appreciate you posting the link to that ISE, the DUO-Inverter! I haven't seen that thing in like 3 years, i thought they stopped making them. It would be awesome for a twin motor hot rod! And they say they can sell the motors separately from the controller?! MetricMind cannot do this, because of agreement with EviSol Europe, and now he is not selling them altogether.

Seen the Electric7.... that guy needs to open up the taps on that thing! :yes: None of that granny peddle foot he has in the videos. :sleep:

Come on Lutach, you and I both know the cost and complexity of a car with 500 miles range and 200mph capable... no easy means about it. What motors would you use? DC brushless? That's the only way IMO, and super expensive LiPo cells, BMS, etc. I have some pipe dreams too, you know. ;)

Have you heard of Shelby Super Cars new Ultimate Aero EV they announced?

Now this is something else, they say they are putting twin 500hp motors, AWD, and 200 miles range... and then when it gets weird, 10 minute charging on a 110volt outlet??? Either they wrote a typo and haven't publicly addressed it, or they don't know what they are talking about, or the third possibility, and my personal preference, they have tapped some sort of unknown energy source, possibly from the zeropoint field vacuum flux? :mdr::yipi:

There first announcement last year, they said it would be 'years' between charging... and now it's 10 minutes on a 110volt outlet? Boy, wouldn't that be nice!


http://www.gizmag.com/lithium-ion-ba...ugh-mit/11244/
Did you see my post a couple weeks ago on A123's new chemistry they are coming out with in the next 2 years? 100mah/g (so thats 7500mah cells compared to the 2300mah M1 cells they have now)... and get this, 170kw/kg power density (400C rate). These are twice the energy density of the best lipo cells available today, these will change the landscape of electric vehicles NO DOUBT!

Check out: http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

If I had the money, I would use two 125kw units for 250kw, and only 180lbs.

My set up will use mainly components that are currently available for military use. The battery manufacturer on sells assembled modules to customer's spec with all the BMS and they can even do a charger, but I have my source for the charger. Price is up there, but it'll be a super car and the higher range tame version for everyone else will be much cheaper. Just need to catch some attention first. I'm not worried about SSC, I mentioned them to snellemin and most of the things they say, I've said before they even thought about an electric car. I've read about that new material those MIT guys made, but they have sold it to a company in Belgium so it might not be in a A123 cell. The cells that I'll be using can already achieve over 200C discharge, but I will never see that kind of discharge anyways lol. UQM is nice, but the problem with most of these new companies is that they are public traded and they think they have the best technology so their prices are up there. Imagine if I had a billion dollar in bailout money? I saw a GM wheelchair on CNBC yesterday and just thought it was a desperate attempt by them. Oh well, we can now see how our money is being used :lol:. This also proves to us that most if not all of those guys have no idea what they're doing.

Unless battery technology changes dramatically, or solar power becomes much more efficient, I don't think we will see high power and long range in the same vehicle very soon. Power is V X A, and even a HV setup will pull some serious current to get high HP figures.

So, what about the use of turbine engines as a generator? I would imagine an engine could be tuned for maximum efficiency for a certain rpm and could run that all the time. And a turbine has less losses IIRC (higher efficiency). So, hook up a small ~50HP one to charge the batteries. For most people, a measely 200HP is all that's needed for decent launches (barring racing), and it only takes a small fraction of that power to keep a car moving at highway speeds. So, the batteries would provide the current peaks for starts, and they would be continually charged by the generator. You'd still have a range limit when you run out of fuel or your discharge is greater than the battery mAh combined with the charge rate of the engine/generator.

Twin 500HP motors with a 200m range? Hmm, let's see; 1000HP is 746,000w. If "only" 5% of that is needed to maintain normal speeds on the highway, that's still 37,300w (50HP). At say 400v, that's over 93A. To get 200m range at 70mph, you'd need 2.85 hours of runtime. That equates to 265Ah. Even doubling that voltage would still need ~132Ah. Still a lot of cells no matter how you set up the voltage. So, there's gotta be something to charge the system to get that kind of runtime. Or am I way off base here?

When I saw what SSC posted, I thought he found some alien technology and I know most of it is like any hyper marketed product. They must say good things to get big money fools to back them up. I hope he can back it up which will be great for the auto industry, but as of now all of it is BS.

I would love to post some of my ideas here, but would hate to see it being used by someone else. With all the components for my car working properly, I can get probably over 1000 miles. The figures have been confirmed by a great team of engineers working for one of the biggest EMS companies and by a great friend of mine who used to prepare my go kart for racing. He btw is a aerodynamic expert who helped me figure out the best possible drag co efficiency to get the numbers I was looking for. It only takes about 20Kw or less (Weight of vehicle and drag co efficiency plays a major part on this) to get a car to maintain 65-80MPH and it only takes that because of the size of these motors being used which makes tons of torque. Electric motors makes power from torque and beyond a certain RPM range that torque goes down and Kw goes up.

zeropointbug,

Here is the link for the Simovert products:

http://www.automation.siemens.com/mc...4fc/index.aspx

The devision I deal with said you can try to call their office here in the US and see if they can help.

BrianG, you actually DO need long range for high power, simply to get the power from a big enough battery.
It's not about a percentage of the max power for highway cruising, it's a specific Wh/mile based on rolling resistance/aerodynamics and to a certain extent, vehicle mass... with an educated guess on Wh/mile for the Ultimate Aero, I would say 220Wh/mile at 65 - 70mph, 220Wh x 65mph = 14,000 watts. 220Wh/mile x 200 miles range = 44,000kwh pack... assuming they use a voltage around 400 volts, 44,000kwh / 400 volts = 110 Ah. This is by not means difficult to do in a super car, this would be roughly 500 - 600lb. battery pack with today's lipo cells.


Lutach, that MIT battery tech was sold to two companies, one being A123, and the other was not stated, but most likely to this Belgium company you talk about.

I would love for you to post all this technology here so I can see it, rather than vaporware.

It's not simply about SSC bull$%&$*#! everyone here, from what they have said, that is WAY past the BS stage, it's a JOKE. So like I said before, it's either all a big sick joke, with the gun pointed at themselves... OR they have harnessed some exotic technology to make their claims real. Everyone laughed at them a few years ago when they said they would make the worlds fastest car, but look at them, they said they would do something, and then they actually went and did exactly what they said they would do, and then some.

Who makes these 200C batteries you speak of? I would love to know.

Brian, what car you referring to when you said use a turbine generator? It would be nice heck yah, but it would be loud. Regular piston generators can be had for a few grand for a 15kW unit, for my little car project this would be perfect, providing the highway cruising power is the calculated 8kW. These generators are quite efficient, and can run 100% continuously.

I can't mention who makes the cells as I would hate to loose my client. They make them for military use and thrust me they are robust. Have you contacted the Canadian companies that are in the industry? If I had the cash and the backing of a big company, I would take all my ideas off the drawing board.

Here is a German company that has a nice looking inverter: http://www.magnet-motor.de/en/home/p...r-electronics/.
It's the S31. They also make a nice little motor the M68.

I think Jay Leno is working on one. Like you said turbines will be loud and it would also be a headache if the thing ever fails.

Well I know he has a Turbine super bike, ultra fast, and one the main features is it's able to melts bumpers behind you! :lol:

Also, Lutach, I can't find the EV inverters (Simoverts) on that link? I emailed that Magnet-Motor company on a quote for that S31 inverter, hopefully it's <$6000 CAN.... cross my fingers. I also contacted that ISE for a quote on the Siemens DUO, but IIRC, it's quite expensive, and not to mention it has dual motor outputs.

No car that I know of. I was just thinking that turbines have fewer losses. Pistons have a lot more power-robbing friction. Also, turbines operate better at higher speeds, so I just figured if it was tuned for maximum efficiency at a certain rpm, it would be the logical choice. The idea is not to solely power the car from turbine-generated power, but to supplement it. If the car draws 30A constantly in highway conditions, and the generator provides 15A (or more) of current, it would extend the life of the battery pack considerably for the longer runs.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/ecojet_shell.shtml

The link I got from my contact at Siemens, he said to get in touch with the Automation devision which is the one who makes the Simovert inverters. Let me know what Magnet-Motor says and if it's not the price you're looking for, I'll talk with someone who works there.