60C really?
 

http://www.maxamps.com/proddetail.ph...8-Pack&cat=218

MaxAmps.com presents the ultimate 1/8-scale hard case racing pack. As you racers know, the most important factor for your batteries is voltage under load. This LiPo pack boasts a 60C rating for all your amp hungry racing setups. It will maintain higher voltage under load than any other LiPo battery pack on the market. Plus, you'll have no problem getting plenty of run time with 5250mah of capacity.

Perfect fit for any 1/8 scale electric vehicle that runs a single 4S pack including the Losi 8ight-E, Associated RC8-E, SC8-E and more!

- Hard Outer Case
- 5250mah Capacity
- 14.8 Volts
- 47mm X 139mm X 39mm
- 60C - 4660 surge watts(315 amps)
- 504 grams
- Water-sealed for all-weather protection
- Comes standard with Hyperion taps
- Comes standard with 12awg Deans Ultra wire
- Highest performance in the industry
- Twice the capacity of NiMH for the same weight
- Plug and Play for any charger/balancer/vehicle
- We add the connectors and balancing taps for you
- Money Back Guarantee
- Normally ships within 24-48 hours
- Exceeds safety standards of the IATA
- Built today with factory fresh cells
- Can be recharged unlimited times per day
- Copper Tab Cells for lower resistance

This should be interesting.

looks at price* I need new undiees...


maxamps rateing= 60c
real rating = 10-20c:diablo:

*cough* *choke* *splutter*

$250 for a 4s pack?? It better hold 3.7v/cell at 60C to be worth that price!

whitrzac: I've said it once, and I'll say it again; I'm sure that 60C spec is real (no sarcasm), but notice they do not say what the voltage will be at 60C?

I supose...

60c surge, so i take that rating as a 30c constant and 60c burst.


translate that and i expect 20c 50c......i got my math right?

I'd say 15c/25c...

I say let them do their advertising and have the UNEDUCATED buy those over-rated packs....

even if it were 60c, why the 12 guage wire? can't they splurge the extra 5 cents a pack and upgrade to at least 10? i mean, if it really is 60c, lol.

well they do say 4660watts surge @ 315 amps(=3.7v/cell)

and on their site they explain:

So... $250 for a 4s pack that MIGHT hold 3.2v/cell...

Jeez they couldn't even make a flashy new label?

I'll believe their claims when I see a 3S version start a 1:1 V8.... should do it according to their equipment right?

Hmm, still, I'll believe it when I see it. Testing of my own MA packs leads me to believe otherwise (granted, they are older-generation cells). Maybe they listened to the masses and/or got tired of warranty claims and actually have cells that performed as advertised now? Still think the price tag is a bit hefty...

Definitely a bit hefty. I would consider trying their stuff if the price wasn't outrageous...

It would behoove them to send a sample pack to a respected third party for verification. Some people simply have a bad taste in their mouth from past experiences and it would lend a bit of credibility to have someone substantiate their claims.

60C is just MA omitting the continuous C rating and using the surge, they are playing with the noobs here. They aren't lying or anything (although they might be), they just aren't stating the C. C rating with I'm sure is something like 30C or lower in reality.

The surge watts is BS though, that is based on the fact that a lipo cell is 3.7v/cell Nominal, they think they can do a simple calculation and multiply the nominal voltage by their so called 60C and get that number. It sickens me. :no:

Hi Guys!
 

Austin here with MaxAmps.

I understand your concerns regarding our new method of rating the packs.

However, I believe if you take the time to hear me out, you will agree that this is a much better method of providing our pack performance information than the constant "C" method.

In an effort to be more accurate and transparent, we have taken the time to articulate exactly why we are using this method and exactly how we are testing the packs to get to these figures.

Using this method, I feel that it is much, much better than just a C rate like the majority of the manufacturers are using. There is NO STANDARD TESTING METHOD TO ESTABLISH IT!

Here is the text from our lipo info page that clearly states exactly how we establish the ratings that we are using:

http://maxamps.com/lipo-care.php

Thanks for posting Austin. I have to agree there are no standards. Enthusiasts have grown accustomed to seeing continuous C and burst/surge C, and they know how these values perform in the real world, so it only stands to reason they want to see everything rated the same way. Consistency is key.

Burst rating does makes sense though. If you go by the runtime vs pack capacity calculation, most people are running an average of under 20A in a typical 8th scale setup, but the bursts are 6-8 times higher.

I'm not gonna flame your product, but I do have older generation cells (5Ah and 8Ah) that do not come close to achieving the rated output without heavily dropping voltage and increasing temperatures. I'm sure others have similar experiences and it can make one leary. I think that once people substantiate these new claims, they will feel more comfortable. However, I do think prices are kinda high, especially with the new Hyperion G3 series which perform exceptionally well for less money.

+1 the new Hyperion g3 vx are amazeing (this comeing from a guy that has 6 MA packs lol)

the 4cell 4200 is 65c burst for only $133 :yipi:

and you have to love the Hyperion 5c charge rate too

Brian,

I am sure that you realize that like every other lipo out there, our packs are constantly improving in performance.

Your point regarding voltage under load and pack temperatures is exactly the same point that we are making with this rating system. "C" rates are just an arbitrary number without much more data.

Frankly, I agree 100% that there should be a standard. I would love for every manufacturer to rate the packs by a standard 3rd party method. That simply is not possible at this time. A 10C pack could perform exactly the same as a 60C pack depending on what "method" they used to establish it. As you can imagine we have tested cells from many, many manufacturers. Some just call it 40C because thats what other people call theirs.

All we can do is be honest about how we rate our packs and what method we use to test them.

As you said, the proof of how our packs perform comes from reviews by our customers including Traxxas, Castle, Novak, HPI, Axial, Caster, etc. That along with the fact that we were voted best battery in RC Car Action for the last 2 years back to back and best battery in Driver.

One final point to address your pricing concerns. We offer a membership program on the website where you can save up to 20% off your packs. We could pay someone in China 25 cents a pack to build the packs for us like others do. I prefer to pay people a fair wage here in the USA to build the packs exactly the way you want including plugs, taps, wire size, wire length, skins, hard/soft case, and configuration.

We are also the only manufacturer who builds your pack to order and guarantees that the cells are factory fresh within 3 weeks. We have the best customer service in the industry and are available by phone and email 7 days a week. We have the best warranty in the industry.

We are the industry leader for a reason. Our goal is for every MaxAmps customer to become a raving fan.

Some people prefer to buy the cheapest pack, install their own plugs, get no support, long shipping times, etc. That is ok. We can not be all things to all people.

We can guarantee the best value and I can assure you that after all the "cheap" manufacturers go away, we will still be here to support our customers with the best products and the best service.

Best Regards,

Austin

I hear you man, I bought my (2) 3s 4200 VX's for $200.


Austin, I, like BrainG and many others here will agree that there are no standards for C ratings. You can preach about your testing methods but here are the shortfalls:

-First, I don't even know of a battery pack that can deliver 60C at WELL OVER 3.2v/cell, I am not even sure the ThunderPower 40C' packs can do that!

-Second, your 4660 surge watts is based on what? That's 3.7v/cell, CAN your packs do 3.7v/cell at 60C? LOL And 60C seems like a very arbitrary number, no?

-Third, no body here (no smart person) would design a setup based on the surge watts, NOT A ONE. You always, ALWAYS make your battery choice based on continuous C rating, although, I admit is sometimes loose/false ratings. SURGE WATTS ARE IRRELEVANT.


My own setup, I don't even go above 25C discharge with a 6s Hyp. G3 35C/65C pack... why? because I want performance, not being able to say I power my rig with 60C+ bursts... and a few runs later have my battery overheat, puff, or even catch on fire in the most extreme case.

In the end, no matter what you say, it will take time for people to get the bad taste out of their mouths like Brian said; I hate to say it, but no one trusts Maxamps anymore. I will take some independent testing to prove otherwise, and also show us that your packs are worth twice as much as the one of the best packs out there.

Austin, I would very much be willing to test a pack of yours if you would donate one for this purpose.

All I would need is a 6s pack with a capacity of 1750mah to test the 60C rating.

Is this possible to do?

Before this thread goes any further, I would like to remind everyone to keep flaming posts to yourself. Stick to facts. We don't want to alienate anyone.

That said, I would like to address the idea of matching motor surge watts with battery surge watts. Motor surge figures are typically based on the power drawn for a specific amount of time, repeated with a certain frequency, or duty cycle. And even then, the actual surge power can be substantially greater than the rating depending on MANY factors. A motor does not have some kind of "power regulator" which limits the power; those specs are based on various motor characteristics, most notably efficiency and surface area (for dissipation).

Anyway, even though the continuous rating may be somewhat meaningless, I think it would be advised to add that rating to your specs, if for no other reason than to reassure people used to the "old system". Failure to do so may be percieved as hiding something.

Standardized testing has been discussed here numerous times, and most people can agree on some variation of the following testing procedures:

- Continuous rating: Specify the continuous current that can be drawn from the battery along with the voltage and the temperature at that current. Example continuous spec would read something like: "Cell X rated for 100A continuous current @ 3.4v/cell for 90% of the discharge cycle, with no more than 30*F rise in temperature over ambient".

- Burst rating: Again, specify the current that can be drawn from the battery along with the voltage and temperature at that current. But, add the frequency and duration of the bursts. Example spec would read something like "Cell X rated for 200A bursts @ 3.4v/cell sustained for 0.5 seconds, occurring every 10 seconds, for 90% of the discharge cycle, with no more than 30*F rise in temperature over ambient".

Alternately, plot pack resistance graphs vs temperature over various discharge rated. We can then calculate voltage drop on that alone.

Austin, why not use the constant C rating if the majority of manufacturers are using this method. It seems that if MA were to use this method it might help to establish a "standard".

zeropointbug,

1. We explain in exact detail our method for determining these ratings. You can test the packs the exact same way that we do and you will find the same results.

2. The surge watt rating is simply a number to help people determine the correct pack to choose based on their motor and speed control. Surge watts are not only relevant, but it is the way that the motors are rated and the only correct way to determine what battery to choose without having a watt meter hooked to the motor.

3. No smart person would determine what battery to use based on C rating since the C rating is just a number that the factory picks. It does not mean anything.

Of all the lipo manufacturers out there, I believe that MaxAmps has the least to "prove". There are many independent third parties that I have listed in the previous thread, thousands of happy customers over the last 5+ years, and the readers choice award in RC Car Action and RC Driver.

You may not realize it, but the reality is that more people trust MaxAmps than any other manufacturer. Your statement is just completely wrong. Your personal opinion is not what "everyone" thinks.

We realize that it will take time for people to understand the new method of rating packs but I believe that over time you will see other manufacturers using this same method. It is much more simple and easy to understand.

I posted here to help explain the new method of testing our packs. Thats all. I am sorry that for some reason you personally feel like we are not "trustworthy" and I take that very personally. I have worked hard to build this business on a rock solid foundation of integrity. If you have had a bad experience with us in the past I would love an opportunity to earn your business in the future. Feel free to give me a call personally to see how we can earn your business.

Best Regards,

Austin Else
CEO MaxAmps.com

Again, I'm a bit confused, you state that, "No smart person would determine what battery to use based on C rating since the C rating is just a number that the factory picks. It does not mean anything."

Yet your marketing states, "As you racers know, the most important factor for your batteries is voltage under load. This LiPo pack boasts a 60C rating for all your amp hungry racing setups. It will maintain higher voltage under load than any other LiPo battery pack on the market."

This is rather confusing to me.

No Flames here, I just don't beleive it.

C rates are not arbitrary in my mind, they are a number that can be tested quite easily, especially given that Maxamps reportedly are in possesion of the necessery equipment.

You hook up the pack or cell to the equipment, increase the load until the voltage drops to various predetermined levels (3.2v per cell, 3.7v per cell for example), then plot the graph like you would when using an Eagletree (something alot of people do actually own).

With that graph, you can see how many amps are being pulled to produce the predetermined voltage levels, then its just a quick bit of mathes to see if the stated C rating is accurate or not:

4200mah lipo cell, rated for 35c, needs to put out 147amps @ ~3.2v to be concidered having an accurate C rating in my book, and most other people's books.

So, lets look at one of your graphes:

http://www.nitrokillers.com/showthread.php?t=1527

You state that you test the 4200mah 35c by hooking it directly up to the CBA and apply a constant 119.8amp load. So, we look at the voltage the lipo drops to, and its around 3.2v for the whole discharge, gradually dropping off to 3.0v around the 3.5 minute mark.

Now, if we do the mathe:

119.8 / 4.2amps = 28.5c.

But wait, I thought it was a 35c lipo, so that would be 4.2amps x 35c = 147amps.

Result = false ratings. And 130 degrees F is excessively hot, 120*F is accepted as the safe maximum. The high temperature would indicate thew cell is being over drawn at even 28c, let alone 35c...

The lack of discharge graphes on the Nitrokillers forum just adds weight to the arguement that MA over rates its packs, and doesnt want people seeing how they really perform. New cells, old cells, that isnt the important thing, as old cells were clearly over rated, but so why should new cells be any better?

Why the secrecy over how the cells perform if they're so good?
Why the secrecy over where you get the cells- I doubt anyone is going to swoop in and steal your contract with them, although...
... why the unreasonably high prices? I understand labour costs are higher in the states, but it doesnt cost $150 to stick on a piece of shrinkwrap and power connectors, surely?

And what about this little gem?

http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21904

Granted they arent 100% identical, but 4x the price?

I would be tempted to buy some MA packs and compare them to my Zippies, and other people surely would too & compare them to their Hyperions and whatnot of a similar spec, but given the curious/vast price difference, I'll pass.

Just wanted to say thanks to Austin. It takes guts and confidence in your products to post as much as you do. I used to believe a lot of the hype I read on certain forums or threads but on any given Saturday, when I look around at what other electric guys are running at my Local track, more are running MaxAmps than any other brand. That speaks volumes to me.

I think there is room in this hobby for many companies to thrive. We (customers) should celebrate the improvements that each vendor brings to the table. They push each-other to do better. Forgetting the 60c burst rating, these new packs are the first hardcase 4s packs from MaxAmps - that's a step in the right direction!

dezfan,

My whole point is that the constant C rate does not mean anything. Some manufacturers test loose cells in a pack and then rate the pack based on the loose cells. Some test with 5 awg wire that is an inch long soldered directly to the tabs of the cells. Some consider it a constant rating if it lasts more than 10 seconds at over 3V. Some allow temps of 160 degrees. Some use cooling over the cells. Some test the cells starting at 50 degrees. THERE IS NO STANDARD.

Brian,

You can tell us your opinion of what the standard should be, but no matter how much influence you think you have, all the manufacturers are not going to "conform" to your standards.

You stating what you think the standard should be will not make it the standard. Thinking that your standards are the "standard" is crazy.

I have struggled with this whole C rating thing ever since the beginning when I would get a 20C cell from 2 different manufacturers and the performance would be completely different from one to the other.

That is the reason that we are changing it. At least this way I can feel like we can honestly back up our claims based on anyones "standards".

As an example, I have talked with a customer who thought that the standard should be "Constant C rate should keep the pack under 100 degrees, over 3.5V and should deliver the full rated capacity". I can not argue the point since there is no standard.

All we can do is tell you what the rating is, how we got to the rating, and how to determine what motor to use the battery with. If you smoke our pack on a motor that has a surge watt rating lower than our packs surge watt rating, we will replace the pack under warranty. It is that simple.

-Austin

I must say, that all dealings I have had w/ him have left a bad taste and contribute substantially to my not purchasing from MA.

I would just like to make 3 points...

1. Price sells stuff...

2. Being voted best anything by any of the rc mags is meaningless. For example I have no nitro race experience whatsoever, yet I can go on any of the rc mag's websites and vote on my favorite racing nitro fuel. I could vote purely based on the attractive bottle, or the cool color of the fuel. However, while my vote counts, my lack of experience has not prohibited me from voting... Just saying that everyone who voted for maxamps being the best lipo most likely had not tried all (or even a few) of the different mfg's lipos and come to the conclusion that MA was the best. I can also say that I did not vote on anything, and I have owned a load of rc products (lipos, radio gear, escs, motors, etc.). So flogging products based on pointless pools is not really a good idea. For all we know the vast majority of the voters could be comparing the performance of their MA packs to some venom stick packs, and we all know that most any lipo will outperform the best nimh out there.

That being said i will definitely agree that Maxamps is an industry leader in pilo advertising. Public image and awareness are very important for any company selling a product or service, and I will congratulate you (Austin) on doing a tremendous job at that.

3. Surge ratings are useful, but unless you have logged info about a specific setup, you really have no idea what said setup can draw. I can imagine the neu powered speed vehicles of Nic Case are pulling way more than the motors are "factory spec-ed"... Voltage drop under load is very important, a123 cells show that while they can handle a 60c load, the voltage drop is unacceptable (to me anyways) so the fact that they do not fail is almost irrelevant. I see you spec the 60c rating at over 3.2v per cell, but then go on to spec the pack at 3.7v per cell. Big difference in cell quality in that range of 1/2 a volt per cell. Suggestions of comparing the surge ratings of the lipos to the surge ratings of the intended motor is not a bad idea, but knowing how the motor was tested is vital. Most motor specs are determined with a prop, so not much use for the land rc user.

I do realize it is difficult, many new users are jumping in to larger scale electric rc, and really have no idea what they are doing. People want nitro+ speeds out of their electrics, and I doubt every 1/8 scale vehicle will be able to do that with your 4s pack in question. I can see a truggy geared for 60mph with a CC/2650 setup pushing that pack very hard... You may want to specify it is for an 1/8 buggy setup for racing speeds (such as 40mph), just to cover yours....

Understandable, but again it doesn't address your marketing which states:

"As you racers know, the most important factor for your batteries is voltage under load. This LiPo pack boasts a 60C rating for all your amp hungry racing setups. It will maintain higher voltage under load than any other LiPo battery pack on the market."

If the C rating doesn't mean anything, why the emphasis on the 60C rating in your marketing?

I am far from an expert on this matter, but isn't this contradictory?

BTW, thank you for the civil manner you use to discuss this topic. It is a pleasant change after dealing w/ other representatives from MA.

suicideneil,

Why do you always show up around the time that anyone else online starts to busts my chops?

From past history, I know that you LOVE to bash on MaxAmps at every opportunity. I personally don't have the time or energy get into it with you again, and again, ...and again. You don't like us. Thats ok. You don't have to be so abusive:). You are kinda like the bully on the bus who is always flicking my ears just to get a rise out of me.

dezfan,

I am not sure what is confusing. We are changing from using C rate over to using surge watts because C rate means nothing.

Electric Dave,

THANK YOU!!! Sometimes on these forums, the only people willing to state their opinions are the bashers. I appreciate it.

-Austin

I have to head home for the evening. I will not be able to respond again to this thread till tomorrow at the earliest. Thanks for all of your input and lively discussion.

I really do appreciate it, even if it is sometimes hard to take the criticism along with the input. We stay on the cutting edge by always improving and we don't know how to improve if all the feedback we get is good.

Best Regards,

Austin Else
CEO MaxAmps.com

I am not conceited enough to believe I have any influence. It doesn't matter what I think the standard should be, as long as there IS a standard. My post didn't say "this is what it should be", it said "it should be some along the lines of...". Someone made standards in other industries (car audio amp ratings are a good example), so it is possible. My whole point was to develop something quantifyable and consistent. The actual values of v drop, temperature, etc is up to you.

Austin - Thanks for coming back to RCM

All - As per Brian's comments this thread will be actively managed...

A debate about ratings etc is interesting and useful - We also are debating a product which none of us have tested...

If surge = burst then these numbers are doable IMO - Enerland is releasing 43C Continuous packs next month which I'd guess would have a burst in this range...

The newer MA pack I have 4k 3s hardcase is working well - It significantly out performs my older 3s 5k which struggles greatly with a CRT.5. I would add that MA replaced my original 3s 5k that lost a cell which no issues.

I also do appreciate the constructed in America point - look what just happened to Medusa!

That said lets keep it civil - If Linc can do it you all can!

How about ROAR - I'm surprised they haven't set a standard.

The do destructive tests - could they not do a C test on all ROAR certified packs?

If C rate means nothing, why state "60C", unless its the only way to show the surge watts is what Dezfan means.

But then "~4000 surge watts" means nothing as R/C ground based vehicles only pull surges of current for very short durations, usually under rapid acceleration, or when doing backflips etc; noobs will look at that figure and expect they can pull that much current repeatedly during repeated burnouts and using the throttle erractically.

The continuous rating is much more useful as thats what vehciles pull once they achieve top speed (down a straight or across a field/ parking lot); a continuous level of current. You can just as easily look at the maximum continuous power level a motor will pull on any given voltage, and work out how many amps your lipo pack needs to put out in order to sustain those power levels continuously. Again, continuous makes much more sense given the way we drive our vehicles, although for drag racers and top-speed record setting guys knowing both conrinuous and burst/surge ratings might be handy, but I tend not to nail the throttle every couple seconds for a few milliseconds, so it isnt that handy to me peronally (or racers in general).

Besides, Im not trying to get a rise out of you, Im just trying to get some answers to questions that I see get asked all the time, yet there is no responce to specific questions when you have the (equipment to get the) answers mopst likely.

I'll leave you in peace though, I've berated you enough for now... :wink:

That is exactly what I was getting at.

Thanks.

Why is it always about the warranty.... speaking of, (and not to start vicious rumors) I had read words to the effect that MA would only warranty packs that were sold directly from MA. Can you elaborate on this?

Why is a Power Force 30 amp power supply $30 more than it is from Hobby Lobby (another US company)?

And yes I understand the thread is about a new MA pack, but to me things like the above are quite telling, and this begs the question... how much are your customers paying, percent-wise, for the warranty alone?

And I am fairly sure I still don't see graphs anywhere.

As some of the other posters stated, I'm not looking to flame, and I would love to see MaxAmps thrive as much as any other company!

Thanks for your time Austin.