To beat the nitros, drive better.
 

I keep seeing these posts all the time where people say something to the effect of "i want to run 2200kv on 6s so i can smoke the nitros at the track and embarass them. lol" of course, 6s/2200kv is just an example. the motor and batteries vary but the goal is the same. to beat nitros. when i read these i think to myself, "you are only going to embarass yourself." anyway, in my experience the only time brushless will "smoke" nitros is in a straight line. at least at my track, the nitros go just as fast as any brushless can around the track and we all take turns winning. sometimes nitro, sometimes brushless. i just thought some of the newbs should know that having a faster car does not necessarily mean you will be faster at the track. i know i thought the same thing a year ago when i was getting into brushless. that my cars were just so fast i would definitely beat the pants off the nitros. well, i lost my pants. when it comes to racing, skill is the best way to win. and where is the glory in beating i nitro in a straight line anway? dont get me wrong. i LOVE speed! but i know that my 55mph brushless 8b goes around the track at the same speed as my friend Joe's 40mph nitro 8b. does anyone agree? or are there tracks out there really large enough to open up a brushless motor to 60mph and still keep the car on the track?

I'll have to agree with 1 exception...

Having way to much power is great when you can't seem to get around this one guy in the infield, so you just blow him out of the water down the straight. That's what happened to me last time at the track. I was practicing and "racing" against this 8T with my G2R, and while we were pretty close most of the way around the track (I got him a bit in the tighter turns due to torque but he caught up through a rhythm section I wasn't used to), I just used the straightaway to stay ahead. All I had to do was make sure to roll on the throttle to not get wheel spin and I could get down the straight in the same time he got down about half. This was only on 4S too.

That's BL for ya...

James I kinda agree with you... except for one aspect... a good brushless driver can be faster than a nitro in every part of the track... I am racing now and can honestly say it is much better out of the corners, you can get to the next corner faster than a nitro, then there is the straight as well. And if you have a triple jump or something like that and not much space, a brushless is more likely to get enough speed to make the triple, however, it may or may not be faster than taking double then the third after.

The first time I was out racing ever in June, I was in 2nd place out of 7, they were all nitros, I ended up getting 4th because of an unexpected shutdown.

The first part of the race I wasn't doing so well, then I just got faster and faster until I realized that with BL power, I can get away from them out of every corner. I was soon in 2nd place and catching up to 1st place truck.

I will have to agree though, there are some pretty good nitro engines out there that can compete with a BL system when tuning is done right, but not faster.

Finally, yes, you don't need OR want 6s/2200kv setup on the track, you can never use it... heck I use a 1512/1700kv on 6s and it is just right IMO for the track, it has really snappy power, lighter than a 1515, and can beat anything down the straight. I can even beat a Tekin (4s, 1900kv) BL Eight that a guy converted since he saw my Revo, which I don't understand? :mdr:

There are other things that need to be considered as well, like going from 645mg servo and bow-tie MT tires to 7955TG and Crime-Fighters LPR was a HUGE difference for me around the track, one of the reasons I did so well at the last race. I am going to get some AKA City Blocks soon, that should be another big jump.

all of you have great points and of course i agree. i am a brushless addict and prefer them over nitro of course. i guess when i think about it a little more the average nitro rtr isnt gonna compare with any brushless setup. at our local track i guess i am thinking of the nitro guys that are really good. basically each week we have about 4 brushless buggies and 3-4 nitros. all of the nitros do get left in the dust except for one guy. he has a GRP motor with the orange heatsink (dont know much about nitro motors) on his losi 8b 2.0. his car is fast. our straight is about 75ft long and he gets down it just as fast as any of us. but only because there isnt enough room for me to hit full throttle and still keep the car contained. also, you are right on the jumps. although his car is fast he cant clear a doubledouble like us BL guys can. we can take it as a quad where he has to hit both doubles. however, despite some of the obvious performance advantages of BL setups he continuously finishes 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. i have seen other guys with very nice nitro setups beat the pants off brushless drivers. these guys are sponsored and such though.
i guess my point was that there are guys good enough to beat brushless with their nitros simply because of their driving abililty. i wasnt implying that brushless isnt better than nitro because, in my opinion, brushless is far superior than nitro in many ways. i just think its naive when i see guys put up a post that makes it sound like if they just buy a fast brushless they are gonna be winning every race against the nitros. if there are any half-decent drivers at their track they are gonna need to learn how to drive too. but again, brushless is my choice any day of the week.

100% true.
having a a$$ load of power is not going to make you win. heck im only geared for 35mph and i keep up with the nitros. 6s on a 2200 is like having slicks. its not going to help you. you will just crash and burn. while the nitro noisily laps you.

Well said. Yeah, here as well, there are a couple guys with $500 engines (O.S. Star lineup) that can just about keep up with me, they are no slouches by any means.

The only guy in MT that gives me a challenge somewhat is the only LST, the rest are Revo 3.3's. The LST handles very good, whatever he did to it, it's me way up in 1st by a long shot, then him like one lap behind on a 30 min main, then the rest of the Revo's are a few laps behind.

It could be cause I'm just that good? Or I am fairly average driver with a helping hand in the straights and such. But, none the less, my nitro head pit guys said it looked like I was driving a truggy because of how fast it was around the track.

http://picasaweb.google.com/SethHuls...44211721253442

http://picasaweb.google.com/SethHulsebosch/RCPhotos#♦

Never the less, your original post is correct, 6s/2200kv. CC/Neu power is NOT going to win you races, in fact, it is a disadvantage, IMO. You want about 1500watts for racing BL with good nitros, that's all it takes, and that's all you want.

I agree 100% with the first post
Winning is 95% skill, 4% setup and 1% luck :lol:

The ability to "blow him out of the water down the straight" is based on the difference between the electric setup and the nitro setup as well as the length of the straight. Nitro's gain their power at higher RPM so although you will have an advantage at the start of the straight, the nitro engine may actually surpass you if the straight is long enough. Electric cars definetly have an advantage on a smaller track.

This maybe true if both drivers have the same skill level and the electric car is setup properly for the track/conditions. James's point is that higher skill level is the determining factor for winning a race. An average driver with an electric car will not be able to beat a highly skilled nitro driver.

When it comes down to it, if all the vehicles in a race (nitro or electric) are setup properly for the track/conditions, the most skilled driver should win barring any unforseen break downs.

If you want to sharpen your skills, get a 10th scale buggy like a b4 and keep practicing. If you can be competitive in 10th scale racing, 8th scale racing will be much easier.

I have to agree with this, "power is nothing without control". When i set up something for racing, i match the speed of the nitro's. You just don't need any more, really. When i talk electrics with smokers, I get, "Why so much power?" due to me wanting to run higher voltages, I say its not about power it's efficiency I'm after. The next statement usually is "If not for power it's not worth it", that's usually before They realize I'm still running after their 3rd or 4th pit stop. I still say that Novak's are the best racing setups for buggies and MT's (despite running hot and being a bit behind the times, hopefully the "next gen" setups will improve on that), simply because they do the best at mimicking the nitro's speed and overall power. I might get blasted for that last comment, but it's my belief

BTW, I have raced and lapped the field with a Novak hv 4400(pre-sintered rotor). I have yet to really run a true high power setup in an official race, I hope to soon, but i will still be using nitro's speed to help setup my trucks

You and i think alike, it's not what you drive, its how you drive. I have a 1/10 truck (T4) that i take to the track even if there isn't a race, just for practice

I agree that the Novak HV system is smooth and I had some success with it in my buggy but unfortunately the system is not engineered properly and will eventually fail. I'm not sure how Novak keeps up with all the warranties for these esc's. I'm also puzzled why the HV's seem to work OK in MT's and fail so often in a buggy.

I think it's direct drive verses a gearbox/slipper setups, only thing i can think of. May also be the body is higher and allows more air to cool, Buggies don't have much room for air vents

tranny vs. direct drive?

Sorry for side tracking the thread...

I think you're right. If the fan looses teeth or fails at all the HV will go up in smoke. If any esc requires a fan from "letting the smoke out" then a built-in thermal shutdown should be required as well. Whats funny is that the HV motor has this feature but not the ESC...
I'm interested to see Novaks 8th scale ESC though. I haven't heard anything about it lately though

The revo's slipper clutch can help reduce the amount of initial current.
Unless you run RCM's slipper diff, then its possible that the buggies direct drive may pull more current than a MT.
The MT's may also soak up bumps better than a buggy which may keep the fans from failing as easily.

The HV needs proper cooling or it will "let the smoke out"

thats it! the center diff, it unloads pulls more current. thats why hv's fail with buggys. your good...:yes:

my first goal when going brushless was to smoke the nitros. That goal has been accomplished. My truggy has no problems keeping up with the nitros out here or passing them. This is running on a 3S, though. If I end up breaking out the 4S, it's so unfair. 5S is simply retarded...and totally unusable. Then again, my motor plays a big part in that.

After racing, though...it's a completely different story. I agree with you wholeheartedly; you must become a better driver. That's the only way you're going to win a race. However...brushless has distinct advantages on a race track; which is why I'm somewhat curious as to the fairness of brushless running with the nitros.

Before anyone pegs me as being anti-brushless, please bear in mind that BL is the ONLY way that I'll run. I hate having to tune a nitro engine...it frustrates me. And I love the ease with which I can run my BL setups all the day long. The only advantage I see nitro having is that in the really long Mains, all they need to do is gas up and they're off. Much quicker than a pit stop for a BL car, no doubt. That's not enough for me to switch over...sorry. Still gonna be brushless, baby. :yes:

If there is one thing that I love about my BL setup: down the straights, I build up an even larger lead. That's one of the things that was killing the other drivers. First one was my consistency...I was rarely on my lid. Second thing was the huge gaps I'd build thundering down the straight.

They're on to me, though. :whip: This next race will be tougher for me...I have no doubt about that. I'm almost certain that they're going to step it up several notches...and with my experience compared to theirs, I think I may have a tough time of it. It's a little nerve-wracking knowing that they're gonna be gunning for me, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Wish me luck. :mdr:

Yeah, no offense, but you have a stupid setup...:smile:... I mean that with the deepest respect! :mdr: You should invest in a 1500Kv. motor and run 6s, you will not want to go back to LV.

Back to thread topic, I have been thinking about this, and I don't know whether I am simply a good driver, or if I am average and the brushless gave me a big lead? Or both? But I find it odd that my first race I nearly got 2nd place, and then my second race I get 1st, by a long shot, left everyone WAY behind, and broke lap records. So what is it? It could be the track that caters to electric power? Could it be the way the truck setup compared to the other trucks? (lowest suspension setting, P3 rockers) Could I have still gotten 1st if I were behind the wheel of a nitro Revo 3.3 setup the same way? Perhaps, I don't know... one thing I do know is.... well, BRUSHLESS ROCKS! :mdr:


I know I have started a thing with the guys at my track, the fasest guy there converted a 8b to Tekin system, and he wants to do a truggy for next year, along with 2 other guys are on the band wagon to get some BL truggies for next year as well.

whaaat? Why, I never! :diablo: Bollocks, sir...pure and simple.







:whistle: just kiddin. :)

Hmm...yes, well, I have been told that several times. The 1.5D is stupid on 4S...and on 5S it's not even anywhere close to a matchup. I was supposed to to do the 2.5D, but when I was ordering the motor, I had two in my shopping cart...and I inadverdantly cancelled out the 2.5D and instead bought the 1.5D. Didn't find out until later (and after they had shipped the motor). :surprised: Great.

Oh well...perhaps in the future I'll get a lower KV motor and get off the LV wagon, but a couple things keeps me on it:

1) I'd have to buy another motor. Don't think I want to starting spending thousands again to get another good setup

2) battery collection. The highest voltage batt I have is a 4S. If I were to switch out to a HV setup, that means I'd need to replace the current battery collection, which is already sitting at about $1500 bucks (more if you count the batts that sacrificed themselves in the conquest of power).

And then, I think I'm awfully spoiled by this monster of a motor. It's so insane I just absolutely love it. :mdr:

Power delivery is the main thing.. my track is hard packed and bumpy. I simply cant put that much power down... throttle control and finesse are you friends with overly torquey cars. but being able to do the "over the top" pass on a nitro over a triple is always fun :lol:

yup. and boy is there torque. 11t pinion and the ferris wheel spur of the X1-CRT makes fer some interesting times. Most especially for the drivetrain.

My old cen matrix did that one better.. 66t spur gear.

sorry for the OT:yes:

i saw on of those old x1 crt's at the track recently. what is with that huge spur gear?? is there an advantage to that?

another ferris wheel. talk about a gearing nightmare. :grrrrrr:

I have no clue. :neutral: Maybe it's to help with the engine temps and to make it quick out of the corners.

I think with the exception of the Cen BB16 was talking about, it's one of the bigger spur gears out there. I think the next closest one is a 56 or 58.

they had buggy diffs and needed the huge spur for proper gear reduction IIRC

From my observation the Tekin 1900 (or a 1512 1.5Y) on 4s w/ zero degrees of timing is a hair more in power than the nitro engines. On 5s it just blows them away.

IMO, it's really runtimes that are the issue especially when the mains are 20 or 30 minutes long. I was running a 20 minute main at a large outdoor track, which I was leading for the 14 minutes by more than a half lap. But when I decided to change my pack at that point, it of course dropped me to second, almost third, and it was hard to adjust to the higher voltage of the fully charged pack. It's difficult because 4s 5000 mah charged to 90% (4500 mah) gives me 19 minutes of runtime geared 14/46. One tooth lower could probably give me that extra minute but it's risky.

One may say to get a bigger pack or go up in voltage and less mah, lower kv motor etc, but I don't really want to add the weight of a higher capacity pack, or have to deal with the higher center of gravity of a pack with more cells. The 1900 on 4s has proven to be a VERY efficient setup with VERY wide gearing range.

just my 2cents
 

Well so far I can say is, that top speed is not that important on track. I saw one track that is tuned for 1:6 2wd cars that allowed me to hit full throttle for more than 2second. What is important and what makes huge difference is how fast you will get to top speed. Nitros are accelerating way slower so if they need to clear longer jump, they have to come at high speed before it and that could be tricky and can cause errors. I can simply come at normal speed, hit full throttle 2meters before the jump and clear it with no problem, therefore less risk, less mistakes, better times.

however without slipperential, my car wasn't smooth as nitros and I did not liked it. Now it's perfect.



p.s. if you are beating nitro truggies with brushless e-revo, it's in hands of pilots. truggy, no matter what powered, will eat revo in corners. or that track is full of jumps after 2meters of straights and nitro truggies cannot clear jumps and you just own them because of that.

+1

throughout a main you adjust to the speed and power very slowly. but after a battery swap its hard to get a rhythm back.



Does anyone know what the averyage MAH per minute on a buggy is with a 15 series on 4s?

Buggy on 4s = ~250mah/min @ track

My Revo on 6s/4200 pack = ~160mah/min @ track

Mind you that is two different owners here.... the buggy number is from a guy at the track, he's fast around the track, and still uses a 'nitro finger' for throttle, so that number should go down as he adjusts.

sweet.

My 8ight comes up at 8lbs flat in race trim with a 1515, 4s 5000mah pack, bow ties and a personal transponder.

anyone else know there specs?

thats cool. my 8ight 2.0 comes in at EXACTLY 8lbs also. that is with bow ties, 5s 3850mah, hacker c50 7xl in a tekno 44mm mount, my homemade 3mm carbon chassis, and pers. transponder too.

What's your mah/min range there James?

Against this specific guy I was still faster. I pulled hard out of the corner and when he hit his powerband I stopped pulling (but he didn't catch up) and as speeds increased I started to pull away again.

I guess its possible that particular guy's nitro engine is not running optimally or that particular engine doesn't produce the same hp that your BL system can. This is why I don't like nitro's, they require alot of work to keep them at peak performance.

Power to the ground is advantageous but its more about what you can do with all that power.

It is how you use that power. Also, most nitro engines have almost twice the HP rating that our track BL counterparts have, and yet they are still slower! Don't you love electric torque bands?! :mdr:

i have no idea. how would i figure this out? i have the hyperion charger and i have been told that i can look at how much mah i have used after a race but not sure how to do this. if i knew how to view the used mah after a 10min main then its just simple math to know the mah/min.

My pack (4s 500mah) took a little over 2500mah after an 11 minute run. seems about right.

ryan, did you get my last email?

I agree with the skills.. I'm still lacking in that department.. and for almost a decade already.. haha

ZeroPointBug... You wonder if you are that great of a driver?.. LOL Truth is, the guys you race with just sucks... hahaah J/K

When I race at my track, I have to set it all the way down to 40MP to run.. even that is almost too fast... but the brushless really have an advantage on the oval track.. offroad, not so much.. but that's from our local track.... But it does make a difference.. Tires, Servo and Weight....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCSjK2gzxBE

Listen at 3:08 minutes in.