1/6th Scale Savage Conversion
 

I've been looking to do a larger scale conv of my Sav XL, basically a Sav XXL. :)
Here's how it sits now:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...yXL4wsmod1.jpg

Watching some of the recent threads here, as well as the Sav/baja conversions has sharpened my thinking.
Here's what I'm looking to do:

Monster Truck style, keep my 4 wheel steering, extend wheelbase to ~520mm (vs 390,) center diff w. slipperential, high voltage 8-10S w. my 1521 2y. It will take a while to finish this whole thing, so hopefully CC will have the MMMXL out by then. :intello:

So far I have most the parts I need, with a few others already for fun. I'm going to go w/ the FLM bulkheads I have w/ BP diffs. I know the draw backs, but going to run them. Also have FLM towers w/ LST shocks on my current XL. The setup is good, but heavy. Plus the shock shafts for the LSTs tend to break at the thread alot. Had these before BB flux shocks came out, so may explore better shock options.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...3516783664.jpg

Plan to mount CD to a skidplate. Here's one from FLM I intended for my XL before I decided to go XXL. for reference. Will likely do my own, so no fancy machining :(

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...e/a62659ad.jpg

The wheelbase is longer than the XL, but shorter than the baja (590mm.) Basically I'm going for a FG/Redcat Rampage size. Been really digging the Monster Beetle look:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...beetle0002.jpg

But the MT option is always cool too:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...igfoot_500.jpg

Also, I've been looking to extend the arms out, but the only option I've ever seen was the alu arms from FLM. Eh, want to stay plastic and easily replaceable. I was shown a thread recently of someone who fit CRT X2 arms onto the savage. Cool. Will explore option. Here's a comparison of the arms from my Hyper ST. Over 3/4" gain ea side. Very strong arms (busted many sav ones) bit the arms are too close to fit.
Plus, these bodies are quite wide, so I may need the wheels out as much as I can to fit properly. already have the wheel extenders as well as 1/2 offset 40series wheels. Width right now is ~435mm, the monster beetle below is 520, and those wheels are close to the body.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...3517415382.jpg

One trouble will be to find arms where I can have str knuckles F&R. I'm only looking at using R arms now, but most Str knuckes I see build in a lot of caster. Great for F, but will screw up the R, esp as the knuckles would be reversed in the rear, leading to positive camber. Eh... may be a pita to do this and 4ws.
Another benefit would be to use truggy axles instead of the Sav dogbones. I would be giving up a bit of width by losing the wheel extenders, but would still gain more w/ the arms. I saw ext wheel hex hubs for my hyper ST (upto 12mm) so that's always an option if needed.

Looking to go 1/8" alu. for the custom TVPs. What's the thoughts on 6061 vs 7075 for TVPs? Obviously the 7075 is stronger, but is it too hard to machine? Prolly go this way anyway.

looks like a great start! good choice of parts. MMMxl is on the way I saw it in person at the bash, should have went :)

looks like you have a good idea where your truck is headed. I have always wanted to take a truggy extend it say 4-6" and make a 1/6 scale. Like you one of my concerns was finding the right length arms and extenders that would fit and bring it to scale. I still may do a conversion one day

I've ben driving my newly finished 1/5 scale, yeah it's pretty awesome but with that long wheel base steering really sucks. 4 wheel steering should be pretty cool Fin !!!

I would have liked to go. First one I missed since 2007. I already had plans that w/e for family stuff, and honestly, I haven't been able to drive RCs all summer. I have a 4 yo, a 1yo and they take all my time and money, plus my wife and I have been very busy with our jobs as well. Its been hard just to keep the house in order, let alone get any playtime.
I'm not even sure if my lipos are still any good. lol

FWIW, I had wanted to get something done before the bash. My new goal is to have it done before the next one. :)


Thanks bro. That truck looks great, but I can imagine it turns like a tractor tho. I know my XL was hard to get used to even after driving truggies, muggies and revos and such.

Here's a crappy vid of the 4WS in action. Wanted to get around to do another one, but really haven't got to drive it much. I sold the MGM off in the spring. It was a bit limited in that big truck too with temps. I think I had old 10C TrueRc lipos in it too. It had some decent power, but nowhere near what the 1521 could put out.

I'd like to go to 2x5S 3300 packs or so when I get it done, with a max speed of ~45mph and loads of TQ. More of a groundpounder than a speed demon.

EDIT: WTF, it isn't embedding right, here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmEnagHqX4

[edit2] fixed.. didn't like the new wider format...



[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3YmEnagHqX4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3YmEnagHqX4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

I'd go with 6061 Finn, you guys put too much emphasis on the whole '61 vs. '75 debate sometimes I think. That choice is more important in other parts, not so much chassis material tho.

The 4 wheel steering might be a necessity to regain the steering, but I wonder if the best route would be to have a programmable servo that could have the rear EPA reduced. You probably remember Honda doing this with some production models, and they had the rear steer in proportion to the front. This would minimize the 'forklift' swing effect enough that your rear camber wouldn't be much of an issue. Just a theory, I am not to be held accountable if it's wrong :wink:

With the parts you have I wonder if maybe you could pull something other than a 'Savage' out of your bag of tricks? The savvy bulks are much more easily adaptable to different chassis types/layouts than say... LST diffs. So that's a big advantage. Not sure what to tell you about shocks, we need something sized between LST and Maxx shocks -diameter wise, for many of these custom builds, I haven't managed to find anything yet. The LST & Mug shocks were made more for the 'shock value' (yes, pun intended) than for any actual need for units that big. Marketing in my eyes, not much else. The main reason I opted out of those on my new build was weight/bulk/tallness (vulnerability to hits). And I believe the Savvy shocks are just foolishly long, making them more susceptible to damage. Never owned a Sav, so that's just my own ignorant pov on those.

You have options, no doubt about that!

PS- I like the Bug look personally.

There's been a MMMXL sighting? :surprised:

You seen this with your own two eyes? :gasp:

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Who had it? Chris or Mike? Chris always has the low down...

Thanks for the tips. I may just go with the 6061 then. I was pondering cutting new shock towers, so maybe ill reserve 7075 for that.

I dont think its going to end up anywhere near yours. All I have to work with is a bandsaw, drillpress, files and a limited amt of skill. Ill do best tho

great looking project!!! You obovisouly know all the pros and cons of using the products you have chosen!!!! Nice1!

regards to finding an ideal suspension.... have you considered the baja front shocks for a savage... they are quite stiff and not good on a normal savy, but with the extra weight you are putting on the truck, these may be one you need??? LST Shocks are big but with weak shock shafts, whats the point... These are like BP Bigbore shocks!!!! I was going to put these on my truck, but they are quite heavy shocks....

http://www.rccoh.com/IMG/land/off-ro...et/5B-com1.jpg

Also good luck with the Lower A arm decision.. I have always wanted to extend the arms but never found a suitable drive shaft alternative that offered the strength of the stock SHD Dog bones. So i stayed away... Keep us posted on how this develops!

Gd Luck!

MMMHVXL FTW!!!! when is it getting here!!! ARGHH!!!

I was thinking about the baja shocks, but I don't know much about them, and needed to look into the sizing. I've only seen them on the baja, where they look kinda small, but thats only compared to a very large truck.

My other thought was some 16mm truggy shocks.

I'm thinking if I go with a truggy arm, I can match a truggy axle. Altho smaller diameter, they've always seemed very tough and durable. I think the stock hpi gear is a bit softer metal, and I've seen a bit disappointed in how quickly the cups and drive pins have worn.
Have not seen this on my trug, even tho its hard more runtime. I figure with a top shelf part, I can prob not lose any str, and may actually save a bit of weight.

I've been on vacation, so I haven't done anything as of yet. Think I'm going to order the alu soon, and try to get a cheap set of X2 arms off ebay. Was considering buying a whole truck if I can find a barely used one for cheap. I don't see the part auctions as I am used to. Most parts are BIN, and not so cheap. I was getting whole bags of parts (like whole F end sets) for a good price for my hyper. Not seeing those now.

I was adding up all I need, and to buy drivelines, arms, hinge pins (look to be 5mm, up from 4mm) hubs, hexes, knuckles and all, it might not be cheaper to buy a whole truck and part out the unused stuff. Saw a barely used one go for $150

Ordered all my materials Sunday night from metalsonline.com. I have a lg sheet of 1/8" 6061 coming, some .25"/6.35mm 7075 for some possible towers (we'll see on this) several feet of 12.7mm nylon gs rod for a custom rollcage, as well as some 6061 tubing that will slip over it. Have some ideas for the mounting using the tubing.

The wheelbase I am planning on will be basically an increase equal to the diameter of one 40series MT wheel. IOW, take one of those mashers mounted as in the OP and move it out by one tire size. Not a radical increase, but a substantial increase none the less and I should be able to keep the truck in scale. The only big wildcard on this is the width of the bug body. Its quite wide compared to 1/8ths, so hopefully it look in scale and not have any potential rubbing issues. They are not cheap either @ $150 shipped.

I recieved my package from onlinemetals.com, BUT... I did not recieve the 0.5" nylon rod, nor one of the 1/4" 7075 plates I ordered for some shock towers.

The rod is on backorder I guess, but they just f'd up not sending the other 7075 plate. Making the towers is going to be a big pain, so who knows if I will end up doing it, but I paid for the plate regardless.


In other news, I decided I'm going to go with Mugen arms for the arm extension. Thanks to Nard Cox for getting me the dimensions. I like this setup as it uses a pillow ball cront carrier that can easily be reversed to achieve the 4WS. Also, caster is set by offsetting the upper arms, rather than built into a C-hub design that is more common in truggies. Simply reversing steering arms in the rear yeilds positive caster. Not good.

The obsticles will be the upper arm arrangement and arm braces for the lower arms. I can make my own arm braces I think. Hopefully I can figure something out to get captured pins. The mugen upper arm will not fit in the sav bulkhead really. I will have to come up with something. Normally just using a tie rod would work, but the pillow ball setup needs something to screw into. Perhaps I can use a Sav adj upper arm, a tie rod and a coupler for the pillow ball? Maybe even a custom ext alu arm from FLM with threading for the pillow ball... IDK. Something will work.

Been working a bit on it last couple days. Still acquiring parts also. Been really busy, and two small kids takes most of my spare time.

Anyway, I chopped up an old alu skid plate I had from an emaxx way back when. I wanted to build a little platform to mount the RCM UCD and the slipperential to start test fitting and getting an idea of how I want to do the ext tvps. One big trick will be to be able to fit the rear servo in there with the motor. The rear str rack requires a bit of room, and the servo has to mount high if its along the rail to allow for proper travel. I want to move the motor way back to hopefully have room in the center for batts. Getting everything inside the TVPS is going to be a pita.

One note: I am using the 50T mod1 spur on the Slipperential. I had to file the hell out of the top plate to clear all the slipperential spur. Also, the tension ring for the diff is also large, so a lot had to be cut out for that to clear as well.

I got the plate all done, then stripped the horrid blue ano.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6247974316.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6248245202.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6340606938.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6340625417.jpg


Looks like I will need to offset the UCD in the final version to give clearance to the R servo. Plenty of room to do this. Only other issue I saw was that the CD sits up pretty high compared to the tranny outputs, so angles are more severe. The F bone will end up being quite long, so not so much an issue. The rear one isn't so happy tho, esp if I try to move it back even further from where it is. The cup was wanting to rub the bone already. I may have to drop the TVPs down and mount the whole thing lower. I don't want to give up too much ground clearance in the middle tho. A ~1cm drop makes the diff much happier.

* I have on a cvd from my hyper st, as well as the rear XL dogbone. they just happen to fit perfectly. Eventually the F dogbone will have to be about 110mm longer...

I've also been drawing several sketches to fit a CD in my Flux with a 1717 / 1520. The higher output cups on the CD vs the standard gearbox make it a pita. Also because the LiPo's will have to be placed that much higher.

p.s. Is your ava Michael Jai White in Black Dynamite?

What kinda rundown is this, you jive turkey? Look man, I got to get back to the streets where I come from, sucka. I told you jive chops, I ain't no snitch!

HAHA! I typed that sh!t before I walked in the room!

Made a rough tracing of the XL tvps w/ the screw holes I need to keep on a couple peices of paper. I'm then going to separate the pages, line them up, then fill in the middle section later.

I'll take that template and tack it to some thin pressboard so I can cut a couple sample tvps to work on the fitting and placements. Eventually I'll trace those back on paper and use that paper template on the alu tvps I'll cut. Only crappy part is my scanner only does max 14" width, so I have to make overlapping scans.

I traced a few of the interior cutouts, but they are just in pencil on the paper. I won't keep them, but just for ref at this point.

Slight revision to my idea. Made two pages w/ ruler markings and parallel lines all the way across. Pages were overlapped and tvp traced w/ essential screw holes. Pages were then split and scanned separately. The new pages are easier to line up on the ruler markings, so new wheelbase is just made by sliding the pages along to the intended measurement.

The wheelbase I am getting on my XL is ~412mm kingpin to kingpin. Strange as the listed wheelbase is 390mm. My target wheelbase is 520mm. I need to slide the papers back ~110mm.

I made scans so I can just print these up, line them up and then overlay them onto my test material. I will need to trace out the new TVP design. The only critical areas are the screw holes and the bulkhead and skid plate fittings. Everything else is nego.

I can see how the stock XL TVPs could make this difficult with the high center. My TVPs are basically stretched Flux TVPs, flat along the bottom. The front\rear dogbones in it are pretty much horizontal. What chassis are you planning to use Nard?

Listen up jive turkey, dont forget to put a decent cutout under that slipper :mdr:

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/...h_IMG_0473.jpg

It's not possible without a lot of modding to fit a CD in my FLM FTC TVP's. Currently I'm just waiting on whatever FLM is coming out with, very anxious to see that.

In the mean while I played a bit with sketch up and got this:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_oXx8nzDDQME/TK.../s720/flux.jpg

It's going to be ~15cm longer than stock, so it's big :)

I would like to make a wooden example of the TVP's for measurements and than perhaps make it in alu if I have / want to spend that amount of money on it.

Lol, yeah I cut a little slot for the spur. I wasn't going to post it, but the plate had a funny wtf face by the time I was done.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6247582146.jpg

So I got the paper template laid out @+110mm. I laid down the bulkheads, servo and motor/cd to get a rough idea on the layout.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6419617621.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6419640207.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6419661531.jpg

Even with the extra length. its still going to be pretty tight to get everything within the tvps. One bog challenge is going to be how to arrange the batts. Basically I got a few ideas. Easiest would be to make a batt box above the F driveshaft. It will sit pretty high tho. 2nd idea is to make saddle packs alongside the driveshaft, and fit them low in pockets. I was planning on HV anyway, so having twin packs is likely.

The 3rd option is to lay the packs flat and low and build batt boxes to open outside the tvps, sorta e-revo style. Its a bit sacrilegious, and I'm not that thrilled about having to make secure doors to hold the batts. OTOH, it would give the best cg result. Eh.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6419719248.jpg

The first option is the easiest, and with that CC motor sale, I have a very cheap 1717 and 1520 to play with. Its awfully tempting to just use those on 6S or so w/ the MMM. Plenty of power and performance with parts already on hand. Otherwise I'm waiting still for the HVMMM, and who knows when that's done, plus its more money to spend...


I did look thru your pix _dV. You had some great ideas and layout. I like what you did with the str servos. That was another thing I was debating, how to mount the servos, as along the rail, the serov horn comes v close to the motor in the rear. I was going to turn them perpendicular to the tvps to clear more space for batts, but I may steal that idea if it doesn't work out well. Need to do it F and R, and its tight in back.

Had some more time to work today. Baby daughter has been sick, so had some time to work while she napped today. Got the tvp template transferred onto the pressboard, then cut it out with my bandsaw. Made quick work of it.

I doubled up two boards and screwed them together with the paper template screwed and taped in. Ended up needing minimal trimming to fit, mostly around the upper bulkhead connection.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6480454482.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6481491537.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6482924969.jpg

Pulled the other tvp off the XL, and just bolted everything onto the new tvps.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6485276444.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...6485299180.jpg

So its not massive, but def bigger. Could use a bit of widening tho. 1" per side would be awesome, but parts just not there. I know FLM has a .5" widening kit, but its $$$, only 0.5", and alu.

Hopefully the MBX6T parts come soon and everything works w/o too much of a pita. We'll see.

nothing some axle extenders couldnt fix :)

Looks like a great size... could you measure the wheel base from axle to axle please...
It loos a very similar size to the DB-17 conversion maybe a tiny bit longer?

Yeah, I looked at the integy axle adapters, and you could always stack those with the XL ext axles, but then its a huge ways off the bearing and just asking for trouble in a crash imo. FLM ext arms + integy adapters would get you there, but I don't want to drop that much for alu arms that bend. PLus this thing will be a tank as it is.


What I am hoping for is that the mbx6t arms work well, then I can use other offset truggy hexes to get me out farther. Least it starts on a good foundation.


BTW, its ~510mm axle to axle. Almost extactly what an FG truck is

thats 3" over the DB-17! similar to the 5t conversion...

Maybe you want an extremely long truck, but i honestly believe that you will lose a lot of the nimbleness that this truck doesnt really have in teh first place...

Would you consider bringing it down to aroud 18.5" axle to axle? it would still be huge but may be more fun to drive?

Not telling you what to do, just thought i would give my 2 cents considering i see plenty of people with the 5t conversion going back to XL Length...

You are right in that the WB will be 20", +3" over the DB17. Its still 3" less than the 5T tho (23"/590mm.)

That said, I not worried at this point about losing a great deal of handling. Mainly on acct of:

1.) 4WS
2.) CD
3.) Greater carrier travel w/ the new suspension

The 3rd bit may or may not work out. However, just adding the 4WS to my XL conversion helped immensely with the turning. I can literally spin it in circles. That was with a tranny even.

I did play with the str radius earlier, and with the 4ws, its not too bad. At least as good as the XL on 2WS, and just as a roller. On power, the 4WS really likes to bring the backend around.

I liked the look of the 5T's but that conv did seem limited by the terrible savage steering, thus I ultimately decided to go this route. At the very worst, all I will waste is my time and a bit of alu plate that did not cost much in the first place. I have seen some nimble 1/5th scales from Redcat and FG, so I'm sure it can be done one way or the other.

If it doesn't work out, its easy enough at this point to just cut another chassis.

Looks great Ryan - I have a package coming from FLM but not sure what is in it yet :)

Jamie still has my Savage Roller and 1717 so I know his version is coming soon...

Well whatever it is I'm sure it will be very well made. After trying to do some of this stuff DIY, you can really appreciate the work Mike and Jaime do to make it look so easy and everything work so well. Not to mention the creative designs they come up with.

I still like my project, but it will end up no where near as nice as the stuff they do. I just wish I had better tools to make some of this stuff easier. It would be so nice to have a mini-mill and a bench lathe. I'm thinking I may take a night class in precision machining in the spring. There is a tech school just across the road, and I can probably get my work to pay for it as well.

Yup... looks great, I'm curious to see how the 4WS works out on the bigger version. Not sure I'll do that to my 5T, but considering it for my nitro XL rebuild.

I've been thinking about doing the same.. but since I'm a 'software architect', work ain't gonna pay for it. :)

In the meantime, I was looking at making a DIY thermoformer. Looks quite easy to do actually. I was thinking I could use one of these to mold an ABS battery box. However, so far I'm not happy with my layout options.

The big 1520 takes up so much room in the tvps, its going to be really difficult to cram it, two str servos, as well as all the electroncs. The only option I really see is to offset it along side the servos, or just say to hell with it and just mount the entire thing dead center and hang my batt boxes on the side again.

I really like my batt boxes, and they are larger than std. Its less elegant than having everything inside, but may actually be better performance-wise. With the 4ws, the pivot point of the truck tended to move to the center, It would make sense to have most of the weight centered there. The batt boxes also sit lower than I can get them in the tvps, so cg would be better also. It would leave lots of room inside for electronics, and make everything easy to work on. IDK at this point.. have to ponder it a while...

lol, I'm a biotech scientist/ sort-of engineer, so I'll have to come up with some good bullshido for them to sign off on it.

OTOH, they've paid for people to do all sorts of classes/degrees only loosely related and paid for the whole thing. This class is only $400 (we have $10K/yr max benefit) and I end up doing a lot with instrumentation and custom system building, so I think I can work it in. If I can do that class, the next class is in CAD. :intello:

Want to work on an MBA too, just so little time as it is w/ the kids

Lucky you. :)

Thanks for the videos Bondo.......I am more pumped about getting my 1717 now. I hope Castle soon has an 8-10s ESC. You mentioned the lipos getting warm, how is the ESC holding up. I would think the 1717 and the 1520 both would put a MMM through its paces. Either way exciting time to be an electric RC fan!

Hey Finn, (Sorry not trying to jack the thread) I want to get an MBA too, I am down the road from Va Tech and I know they have a one night a week MBA program and you get the full Pamplin MBA (<--Tech's B school). And there was talk of moving to some kind of team building system where they cut down to 2 times a month with the prof, then email with your team on assignments. I know you are in PA, not VA but if you haven't talked with a bigger school close by, you might see what they have to offer. You have some GREAT business schools in PA! (Wharton anyone......5th ranked and personally I think is should be higher than that, based on what I have seen out of Harvard grads!)

Sorry back to talking about torturing a poor Savage with a 1717!

Steal away if it's gonna help. It's a pretty simple mod and the cutout for it is bridged by the steering post behind it so the TVP structure isn't really compromised. I haven't had anything hit\damage the exposed steering in a decent amount of varied driving either, the location makes that unlikely i think.

Will be great to see some vid of it when finished. I enjoyed watching the vid of your previous 4WS build and its unusual look when turning.

Btw, you might find that with the cutout you have for the slipper that rocks will get stuck under the adjustment ring as its diameter is much larger that of a normal center diff case. That's why my cutout is as wide as it is.

Thanks for the tips. :) The little platform is just a temporary solution just for fitting purposes. I'll be sure to cut the final plate larger if/when I actually get to that point!

I'm glad you liked the vid. It was pretty short and crummy, but just something to show the 4ws in action. Meant to make another vid, but have barely drove it this yr.

I made a better template using acrobat. The one attached earlier is handdrawn and scanned. This one I added lines digitally to be sure they are square and they print darkly. You have to tell the printer to print comments for the lines to print. Kinda lame, but Adobe is teh ghey.

I may end up cutting another template with a shorter wheelbase. The bug body I want is really suited for 480mm wb and I'm worried it may be too long to look right, but IDK at this point. Since I may bail on the batts inside the tvps, there is not much point to the bit extra length.

Prolly buy the body and compare the two templates before I make any cuts into my alu stock tho.