New castle 1515 sensored electrical spec
 

Hi all,

What is the electrical parameters of this new motor (I0 and rm). Does anyone have the opportunity to measure these parameters ?

RM: .005 ohms (5 milliohms)
IO: 2.7A (out of the box, before run-in)

Thanks!

Thanks Patrick for the answer.

I suppose that I0 is for 10V ?

So the iron losses for 16V should be around 54W, am I right ? I have a Hpi Alphastar 2350KV (If I'm remenber well, is a 1517 1Y with N28UH magnets and 0.35 lamination for cost killing which is, in fact, 2480KV@no load) that is burning 70W in iron losses at 16V, how many degrees difference between the two ?

It is controlled by a mamba max pro with 1.52 firmware, so the sensored mode attract me a lot ! Thx !

That's measured at 24V. I can get you a 10V measurement if you want, we test the 6S motors at 24V.

We are using a .2mm lamination, special High Frequency grade, Japanese steel. So the iron losses are quite low.

I think you should see about 1/2 the iron losses with our motor, vs a motor with standard .35mm laminations. In our motor, the iron losses are the minority losses -- more important is the copper losses. At 5 milliohms, the iron losses are about 50 watts at 100A.

Thanks!

This new motor is really efficient ! the hpi 2350kv (also made by castle for hpi but low cost) is more than 5A at 24V no load (125W of heat...), almost twice the current of the new castle 2200kv sensored at the same voltage ! Not bad at all. My current motor need a big fan (delta 40*28mm FFB0412VHN 15.79CFM 1400LFM) to stay cool for long time run (offroad track with turnigy graphene 4S 10000mah, 30 to 40 min run time with 18 pinion 48 spur), I think that with the castle, no need for a fan.

Raaahhh I think I need to spend some money...

What is th I0 at 16V ? something around 2.2/2.3A ? Thx !

At 24V the etamax of this new castle is calculated at 95.3%, this is HUGE, and one of the best I saw until now ! Really cool. What is the real wolrd max eff of this motor ?

Around 90% efficiency max, real world.

Am I right for I0 at 16V ? Would be around 35/37W of heat.

It's not linear with RPM, you probably won't see that much of a reduction on IO. I would guess 2.5-2.6A

Thanks!

OK. A so small difference is surprising me because, with fresh measures, on my motor the difference is about +30% no load current between 16V (3.75A) and 24V (almost 5A). The result is almost twice the power from 40Krpm to 60Krpm (60W to 120W) ! Thx for the informations about your new motor.

That's because of the thinner, more resistive laminations. The delta in IO is much smaller with RPM.

Thanks!

OK ! thx. That makes sense. So my motor is almost just a heat generator, althought I'm not complaining about the real performance level, but when you add the high efficiency, low temp et sensored mode of this new castle motor... I'm just wondering how resistant to dirt/bad treatment this motor could be when compared to the old unsensored one, only time would tell ?

After a very long thinking (!), I just bought this 1515 1Y sensored today, I hope it will works great and reliably for a long time.

let us know

For those who are interested (if any) in electrical parameters from this new motor, I've done some meseaures on my brand new 1515 1Y sensored (bought from amain, hope that it's not a fake !)

The motor is on my desk with no cooling and no pinion, and it is new. The esc is a brand new castle MMX (also from amain). These measures where done from a regulated power supply to get precise input voltage, current and wattage (dps3005 verified by myself for its precision readings) and a little oscilloscope to get the precise wave form on motor phases (to check the full throttle) and the precise frenquency to determine the rpm (freq/2x60 because of 2 poles pairs). The I0 is the current from the PSU minus the idle current consume by the esc (which is variyng between 150mA@8V to 75mA@24V). The motor power loss is then the PSU voltage by the motor I0. I don't use MMX logging to get I0 current because it not precise enough on such low current.


At 8V I0=2A power=16W rpm=17760 and kv=2220 (maxeff=93.1% at 56.6A)
At 10V I0=2.2A power=22W rpm=22140 and kv=2214 (maxeff=93.5% at 66.3A)
At 12V I0=2.4A power=29W rpm=26640 and kv=2220 (maxeff=93.8% at 75.9A)
At 16V I0=3.0A power=48W rpm=35460 and kv=2216 (maxeff=94.0% at 98.0A)
At 24V I0=4.0A power=96W rpm=53250 and kv=2219 (maxeff=94.3% at 138.6A)

I will do the measure at 20V soon.

The MMX logging of RPM is 3.6-3.7% more than my measures. Not too bad. Maybe due to it's clock without crystal oscillator. Dont' really know.

The motor heats up very slowly at 8V (takes several minutes to reach 50°C) but it's a different story at 24V, it's more a matter of seconds before it reach 50°C and before you can't hold it in your hand. And it is with no work done, just the losses. It's always a good idea to have a good cooling solution.

The next step is to mesaure precisly the Rm of each phase to see if the motor is well around 5 milliohms.

Question for patrick, are you sure your measure was at 24V ? Because your result seems very far from what I get (2.7A versus 4.0A).

Were you running sensored or sensorless? What phase advance were you using?

Note that you will see higher IO at higher phase advance.

Thanks!

Patrick

Thx for the answer. It was sensorless. I have tested both mode and no real differences between the two. The advance is set to low (0 to 5 if I remember well) with castle link.

And now here is the Rm for each phase (measured with precisely 5A passing through the phase and a millivolt meter on the motor solders)

AB=5.6 mohms
AC=5.6 mohms
BC=4.4 mohms

It's weird that there is so much difference between two phases, no ?

average of the three 5.2 mohms

I'm surprised to see THAT much difference, usually they are a little better balanced.

I'd honestly expect to see slightly lower (A) to (B) and (B) to (C) than (A) to (C).

B phase has a shorter run to the outside than A and C.

But, it's still within nominal.

Thanks!

Not surprising you didn't see a difference -- even in sensored mode, timing above a certain threshold is dominated by the sensorless routine. (which makes sense...)

You are probably close to the maximum 5 degree advance at 24V, so your rise in current is normal.

Thanks!

Patrick

Yes, my bad. the values are AB=5.6 AC=4.4 and BC 5.6

OK good to know. I will try with 0 timing to see what append and report here...

On the motor box I can read "revision date: 03/17" and "PKG: 6140-03-0401". Maybe it's not a genuine castle 1515 ? If it's the case it would be a very nice (and expensive ;) ) counterfact !

Could very good bearings (like boca ceramic abec 7 for exemple) reduce I0 losses and if yes in which proportions ?

For I0, I have tested at 0 timing. Same results at all voltage.

For phase Rm, I have double checked every of my measures of the new 1515 and all the results are good.

AB=5.6 mohms at solder tab 7 mohms at bullet
BC=5.6 mohms at solder tab 7 mohms at bullet
AC=4.4 mohms at solder tab 5.8 mohms at bullet

Just to compare here is the results for my old hpi alphastar 2350kv made by castle with shortened wires (old design without solder tabs)

AB=6.2 mohms at bullet
BC=6.2 mohms at bullet
AC=6.2 mohms at bullet

Perfectly equal phase to phase. I have to say that I am a bit desapointed by the result of the 1515 sensored. I will have to check how the coper wires are connected to the tabs, maybe a defect. How can I check if it's a genuine castle ? Amain is a reputable store, isn't it ?

Disappointed by what?

Those are excellent numbers. At 100A, the whole motor is only dissipating 50W.

The difference is simply that there are tabs -- and A & C phase have slightly higher resistance because they go farther around the rear of the motor, while the B phase terminates right at the terminal.

Perfectly normal. The motor phases are balanced, there's just some additional resistance on A&C for the tabs.

Thanks!

Patrick

OK, it's certainly perfectly fine. Do you if high grade ceramic bearing can reduce I0 in a measurable manner, or it's useless ? (and make it run noise free, the orignal bearings tend to make some noise at different rpm)

Ps: what is the toshiba mosfet ref used in the mamba monster X, if it's not top secret, TPHR6503PL ? just to know... And I promise, I stop bother you with all my questions ;)

Ceramic bearings can make it both quieter and reduce IO -- but be careful, they damage easy. And the front bearing is especially easy to damage.

I can't comment on what MOSFETs we use. But you can probably read the numbers off the top of the chips if you are interested. :)

OK no problem ;) . Mamba monster X can be removed from it's plastic box ? I don't want to ruin my brand new esc just to see the mosfet ref...

Well, no. The heatsink would have to be removed to read the chips, and that would void any warranty.

Sorry. :cry:

OK so I will NOT take that risk ! I will have to wait for it to burn... Is the monster X prone to self combustion ? :) Do you know a compatible motor mount for the Hpi apache/vorza to put the 1515 sensored in the chassis ?

For info (and memory for me)

I have measured again I0, but this time with a higher motor temp (around 60°C) and the kv is rising up a little with temp (from 2220 to 2250) and I0 go down a little (-300mA from 4A to 3.7A@24V and from 3A to 2.7A@16V)

So the calculated max efficiency at 60°C of the motor is 93.7% for 16V and 91A (50W copper losses and 43W iron losses), and 94.0% at 24V and 131A (106W copper losses and 89W iron losses)

The esc+motor max efficiency is calculated to be around 90/91% for 16/24V

In fine, it's a pretty good motor with some high efficiency :)
I'm curious to see what would happen with hybrid ceramic bearing. I think I will do some tests later.

Ceramic bearing may decrease IO somewhat. But I wouldn't expect much of a difference.

When you compare our motor with others, you will notice our IO is very low, and efficiency higher.

After a few months passed with this MMX/1515 sensored combo in my car, I can say that I'am prettu satisfied with the result until now. The combo is powerfull and reliable (2.02 firmware), but I have two question:

1) what is the ESC overheat temperature treshold (80°C ?) and what is the audible tone sequence to inform the user of this state ?

2) What is the over current limiter setting and why we cannot set it like with the XLX? it seems to be around 150/160 amps continuous (for at leat 4 seconds), because I can't get above this max value and the KV of the 1515, which is at 2220rpm/V no load, drops to 1700rpm/V which is a big difference with only about 5 mohms phase resistance (with turnigy graphene 10Ah 25C continous discharge measured with wayne giles IR meter V2) see graph below.

Thx !

Full size link: http://maxime.pierron79.free.fr/maxpowertest.png

1. 120C is the preset shutdown temp.
2. The overcurrent is set to around 400A initially, and drops with temperature. But I have to explain that the "logged" current is an average, and the "limiting" current is a peak -- so they may differ considerably.

Thanks!

Patrick

The 400A peak limit is for the manba monster X ? it's seems te be a huge value for such a small ESC ! How can it copes with such high current, only for a little fraction of a second I suppose ?

What is the max continous current for say 10 to 20 seconds that the MMX can support without risk, and with this fan instead of the original https://www.digikey.com/products/en?...2VHN-F00&v=603 ?

Over 200A for 20 seconds.

And yeah, it's a pretty big value, but yes, it's for a very short time. The actual current where damage happens to the MOSFETs due to real damage to the die is over 600A.