retaining mech brakes in 1/8 buggy conversions
 

I see most if not all the buggy e-conversions do away with the mechanical brakes and rely solely on the electric motor/esc to do the braking...I can see the reasoning..lighter weight but the downside is hotter electrics.
Is it just that or do most 36mm/540 motor cans conflict with the brake holders as well ??

just priming myself for the Matrix conversion and the possible problems I might encounter since I'd like to keep the mechanical brakes if I can find the room for the servo amongst the brushless lipo system.
thanks in advance...

pinolelst

Like you said, it eliminates extra weight. It also simplifies things and looks tidier with the removal of the servo, linkages, mounts, pads, etc - not to mention trying to find a spot to install that stuff without interfering with the other components. The downside is that it is a little harder on the ESC.

Also, depending on how you make your motor mount, it may interfere with the brakes. Most motor mounts are right up against the diff where the brake usually sits.

While it may be harder on the ESC to use the motor's brakes, you can make up for it by using a fan over the ESC if it heats up to much because of the motor brakes. Overall, ditching the mechanical brakes is a good idea IMO.

pinolelst, if you ARE interested in running disc brakes, I have run a dual-disc mechanical brake setup on my brushless-converted MP 7.5, using a brake servo, of course, in conjunction with a 9920BK esc programmed for throttle only.

Now there were two reasons I used mechanical brakes on my car

1. It's an onroad car, and I originally ran it with a two speed which allowed the car to top out at 55 - 60 mph which demanded A LOT of brakes to haul it down to a stop in a short distance

2. and, I was still getting used to the difference between the lazy acceleration of nitro and the "blink-and-it's-already-gone" whacked-out acceleration of my new 540XL.

A bit extra weight naturally and more components, but I always knew I could tromp on the brakes as hard as I wanted (usually while trying to avoid plowing into something when the car got away from me!) and not worry about any strain on the brushless system. My car spent a lot of its driving time howling to a fully locked-up stop while I was learning how to drive "brushless" - huge fun but crazy!!!

It's certainly a trade-off either way, less weight and more simplicity for more electrical heat, or more weight for a brutal, worry-free braking system.

With my first couple months driving my brushless conversion, i needed all the brake I could get to avoid destroying my car in a crash - but you might know about that stuff already! Now my car runs a single-speed center spur, geared to a more sensible top speed of 45 mph, and I'm a little better at driving - as a result, I'm only rarely hard on the brakes, and so I've converted over to letting the motor do braking the "emf" way. Also very nice, and very powerful brakes as well. Just more heat for the ESC to deal with.

I have found the "electric" brakes to be stronger than any servo mechanical brakes... you can do instant front flips with BL brakes.

One of the most-asked question I get from the nitro racers is "what about brakes?"... they think it won't have good enough brakes. Then they see it and can't believe it.

The MM has so much brake that I have it dialed out to about 30% to keep it from locking up the tires.

My brother in law's JATO takes forever to stop with the stock servo setup. He needs to get a stronger servo int here....

GD. I agree the motor brakes are stronger than mechanical brakes, but The feel of the mechanical brake is still better IMO. I use motor brakes on most everything for smplicity, but for controll I really like the feel of the mechanicle brakes. Just my opinion though.

I hear you there... mech brakes can be set up to feel good... and they don't make a funky chatter noise like the MM brakes can. :)

No argument here about the power and nice progressive action of emf braking; now that I've switched to emf braking, I really love the unanticipated side benefits, such as being able to adjust the brakes even while I'm driving - like GlassDoctor pointed out, you can "dial in" braking power just by adjusting the "brake end point" on the transmitter, nice!

While I was running the mechanical brakes, though, I immediately pulled the factory steel single disk setup (with the "pads" glued to the calipers, yuck) which had basically burnt up during the first day, and replaced it all with a dual fiberglass disc setup - that had my car screaming to a halt when I needed serious braking!

I think it really comes down to preference.
On a center diff the oil has an effect on the brakes as well.
With a center diff and dual brake adjustment you have more control.

Ah, the age old question, mech or elec brakes.
Like Leroy said, its all preference. I like the feel of a center diff with rear only brakes. The center diff still brakes gives a touch of brake to the front so a front end oneway with elec brakes won't do the job quite as nicely as mech brakes do. But, thats just me

I've never had mechanical brakes on any of my conversions, but the electric brakes work just fine for me. I feel I can work the motor's brakes and get used to the "feel" of them.

I personaly like the feel of mechanical breaks just my opinion though and in some situations for example some one here said the converted a bl jato but it did not handle as well as a nitro one because it was lighted in this situation IMO the weight would only help but in other situations it would hurt. IMO i do not think the weight of a servo will win or lose you the race unless you totally screw it up. YOur choice but totally personal prefrence. I like mechanical and that is what I would chose but that is me see what you prefer yourself.

just curious how would you set up the servo on a mechanical setup to when you push forward on the throttle it breaks. I do not have mechanical breaks on any of my cars but i have driven many cars with mechanical ones. so i am wondering what allowes this to happen the channel of the servo on the rx or the radio settings. Thanks guys.

Well, if you have channel mixing on your radio system, you can set up CH3 to be coupled to your throttle. Then, just set the EPA on CH3 so min brake is at neutral on the throttle. CH3 hooks directly to the brake servo.

If you don't have channle mixing, you simply use a Y adaptor on the throttle channel. One leg of the Y goes to the ESC, the other leg of the Y goes to the brake servo. Since the servo is going to move through the full 60 degrees when you go forward and brake, you have to set up the servo horn linkage to only push the brake at the right point of the throttle throw.

Channel mixing is the best way to go.

k thanks for the explination.

I've got a stumper of a question you you guys -

When I first set up my Kyosho Inferno, I used a Futaba "Magnum Junior" T2PEKA 2-Channel FM radio with a steering and a brake servo, using the Y-Connector to plug in a Warrior 9920BK. Set up this way, the Warrior was programmed for forward-only. "Reverse" on the transmitter throttle simply moved the throttle servo the other way, which applied the brakes.

Here's the Question - when I decided to run emf braking(motor braking), I removed the throttle servo and Y-connector and plugged the 9920BK directly into the receiver.

As per programming directions, I removed the red programming bridge, turned on the transmitter and reciever, plugged in the Lipo main battery and waited the "5 seconds" for the motor to beep to start programming.

NOthing! I tried a dozen times, then plugged in the y-connector again (with the servo plugged in and just lying on the table next to the car...

And instant, perfectly easy programming! Frustrated, I removed EVERYTHING from the car, dug out the cheapy Kyosho "perfex" 2-servo AM radio system that was originally in my Nitro Inferno, and pow, the 9920 programmed beautifully without the y-connector or throttle servo plugged in.

Why? Are there certain radio receivers that an electronic esc can't "recognize, or that ONLY work with a servo?

Right now I'm using the AM radio, which glitches from the brushless stuff, and my nice FM is sitting in a box, sniff. What to do?

That is weird. Ive not heard of this before. I have never had any issues like this before. This is not fixing the problem, but could you just plug the servo in while programing and then unplug it anfter you finished programing it? Then you should be able to at least run the FM radio.

I'm wondering if others have seen this problem? I have heard of others having trouble programing their BK controllers, but I cant recall anyone identifying that a servo plugged in to that channel on a Y allowed them to program, or that it is specific rx or tx that causes the problem.

Jhautz, that was exactly one of the thousand combinations that I tried, and the result was NOT pretty - it scared the you-know-what out of me...

On the "bench", I programmed the BK, then disconnected the servo & y-connector, plugged the BK directly into the receiver, and went out to the street to take a test spin...I just touched the throttle, and BAM instant full throttle. And a 6T 540XL on 4S at full throttle (with visions of a $1000+ down-the-drain spectacular crash) was no fun.

Luckily, the glitch was just for a second, but then the throttle started jumping and surging, even with my finger off the throttle. Yeow!

:dft002: OK then.... DOnt do that!!!!!:005:

Hopefully someone else has a solution for you. Somebody else around here must have run into this.

I have seen an issue of the plugs not going all theway in to a rx. This makes
it hard to program and run. It will become very glitchy. The reason it works
with the y harness is that the y harness goes all the way into the rx. Try
the y with no servo and see. Hope this helps.

I too think that the plug didnt go in all the way ; same thing happened with my old 9920, didnt push it in all the way and glitched like a B!tch.

CHC and Sylvester -

I wondered about that as well, considering that the 9920 came with what looks like a "Hitech" style plug and I was attempting to plug it into a Futaba receiver, so to test for a possible poor connection, I plugged in the y-connector (which, ironically, also had the "hitech" style plug but worked perfectly), but I left off the servo - that is, I didn't plug in the servo to the other female on the y-connector.

Nothing. No beep, no signal, nothing.

So, I then simply plugged the servo into the y-connector, without touching ANYTHING else. Turned on transmitter, receiver pack, main battery-

perfectly easy programming. So, I simply unplugged the servo, again nothing - impossible to program.

Nuts

Here's the REALLY (really really) weird part - with the 9920 plugged directly into the receiver (where it wouldn't program), the motor DID signal (beep) the programming initialization when I touched the steering wheel, and it programmed "through" channel one (steering), even though the steering servo was still plugged into channel one, and the 9920 was clearly (I checked several times because I couldn't believe what was going on) plugged into the throttle channel (channel two)

Now after letting it program this way, it still didn't work - not that I could have driven it!

Receiver is 100% okay - I rechecked it by plugging in two servos; everything happy and working great. My 9920 also works great (besides the annoying glitching) on the AM Perfex system.

Nuts

How about this question then - how many of you use a Futaba system? If not, which systems do you use, and are HAPPY with? I love Futaba, but I'm hesitant to buy another and have the same problem!

What if you plug the esc into the steering part of the rx?
Can you program and operate it like that?

What were you drinking when this happened? ;)

[QUOTE=Sedri]
Here's the REALLY (really really) weird part - with the 9920 plugged directly into the receiver (where it wouldn't program), the motor DID signal (beep) the programming initialization when I touched the steering wheel, and it programmed "through" channel one (steering), even though the steering servo was still plugged into channel one, and the 9920 was clearly (I checked several times because I couldn't believe what was going on) plugged into the throttle channel (channel two)
[QUOTE]

I don't see how it's possible for channels to get "mixed up" due to anythign plugged into the rx.

When it was programming via the steering wheel, what was happening with the steering servo? Did it move also? Did it not move at all? Did it move via the throttle trigger?

So...
1. plug in only the steering servo... to channel one slot in rx. Works ok?
2. plug in servo to channel two slot in rx. Both servos work ok?
3. replace channel two (throttle) servo with the 9920.... and it now is controlled via the steering wheel?

That can't (shouldn't) be possible. Is this what happens? :007:

Sounds like you have some kind of channel mixing going on between the steering channel and the throtle channel. Either that or you have a bad Rx. This just doesn't ake any sense.

Can you program the esc by plugging it into the steering channel and using the wheel?

Haha!

I know you won't believe me when I tell you that I don't even drink or smoke, considering what i've been describing, but yours truly was stone cold 100% sober and under the influence of nothing but confused curiosity!


All right All right All right, I'll stop pestering you all with this weird problem; I suppose that I need to just cough up the money and get a newer, up-to-date radio system and be done with the whole thing. I just really want to know what's going on.

Mmm, IF any of you are curious, though, to continue this nonsense experiment, I'm going to put my radio up for sale on eBay to get a few dollars toward a new system. Any takers? It's lot's of fun, I promise you - you'll never be bored.

Hee hee... I'll pay shipping plus my $.02 :)

Do you have another rx to try with radio?
Is the black wire plugged into the rx plug good or has any bad spots?
It is no garuntee that a new radio will fix your problem.

Where are you located? Maybe there's someone here that lives relatively close-by that wouldn't mind helping you out.

Or, take it to a LHS and see if they'll try a different Rx/Tx set. Most I've seen have a few personal vehicles laying behing the counter that they could temporarily hook up.

If it turns out NOT to be the Rx/Tx, you will have saved a few bucks.

OMG, I hate to say it but I wouldn't dream of asking our LHS anything in connection with brushless, etc - they are WAY behind the times...I asked them one afternoon, for example, about which 540L's they had in stock, and no one knew what that was. All they knew was "Novak, Novak", and I said, "Well yes, your Novak there is a 540S; and i'm looking for the longer 540L, like Feigao, for example..." and they got that deer-in-the-headlights look. Then I made the mistake of asking if, "well, do you carry any pinions? I'm looking for a Mod 1 pinion.

"Excuse me?"

""You know - 48 pitch for electrics usually, 32 pitch on your Traxxas, Mod 1 for 1/8 nitro - Mod 1 pinions, gears, something?"

Oh well. I realize I've got a lot to learn - there's always a lot to learn - but it was kind of fun, in an ironic way (though I got nothing accomplished that day at the LHS) to realize that I apparently have been learning something, I guess.

That's why I'm here in the forum. Too bad for the LHS; one of the advantages of spending a little more and buying from your LHS is the convenience of being able to pop back in with questions, help and parts. I hope you guys have better luck than I have!

Brushless motor sizes aren't common knowledge in most LHSs. I'm the only one who works at mine that understands them (at least for car use). Fortunately for those who shop at my LHS there's a car guy who's up to date :). Although the percentage of people who know the benefits of brushless is quite small... (again, at least for cars)

LHS brushless truck talk is always entertaining. I was describing my revo and buggy conversions and my LHS looked at me like I was out of my mind. They kept say ''who makes the conversion kit for the buggy?'' and I kept saying ''I do'' Then they were like ''yea but who makes the kit?'' They just didnt get it untill I brought it in and showed them.

I bash with one of the guys that works at my LHS. He's nitro only right now, but as he sees me running circles around him with my conversions he starting to ask questions about how to build one for himself. So now Im starting to educate him. He he he... Another convert:D

What do you expect? Of course they look at you like you speak Chinese. :)

This isn't a reason not to buy from the LHS though. They don't stock these specialty items, and they may even know how/where to get some things. It's not mainstream stuff. You won't find many LHS with a Feigao etc sitting on the shelf.

But some of the stuff that we use that is mainstream or becoming that way... IMO it's a good idea to use the LHS as a source. Get them in the mix and teach them what's going on. That's the only way they will catch on. Now most LHS aren't going to get excited about this but at least they will know it exists.

My LHS has been getting more and more plane oriented brushless and lipo product in stock... usually the brand name stuff. And of course they have the Novak and LRP car stuff, and the Orion lipo packs. But they are definitely interested to see what I have.. what motors and batteries I'm using, etc.

Someday maybe they will carry a couple things... but for now I get some things from through them.... some from here, some direct from the mfg.

But I keep the LHS in the loop.

LOL

Somewhere in the last 3 pages a couple of you gave some good insight into mechanical vs motor braking.To those people I extend a wholehearted thank you...:D
to the rest of you that hijacked my thread with stuff that...although interesting in it's own right....had absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand I extend a wholehearted :007:

pinolelst :D

Hee hee... were we talking about brakes? :005:

Things can go south in a hurry huh? :010: