Castle HV Hydra, but where is the car version!!!!
 

Now this is really messed up. Where is the HV version for us vehicle guys?

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/fefor...ad.php?t=23751

So many car guys are asking for this exact ESC... but like you said lutach, where are these same models for cars?

They need to stop with the "coming soon" thing. It's really old! Even when it is for something else. "Coming Soon" means two years, it is done, it's not done, it's still being invented or whatever!!! It would be nice if they told the story straight up instead of making it seem like it's going to be released soon. Don't get me wrong I love their products. Just getting tired of the same old story. Rant over.

I would buy a few 240A 12S Hydras for sure. Even though I'm trying to get my own ESC done, it wouldn't hurt to get one of the CC in my collection if they do come out with a car version. One idea if anyone would be interested, "DON'T BUY THE MMM AND ASK FOR A CAR VERSION OF THE 240A HV HYDRA".

They really need to learn from TRX. They don't say @#$@ until its ready. Then they drop you w/ a bomb, and guess what, its coming next week, and here's the price.

CC: "Look what we thought up!!!! Its awesome, I just spec'd it out!!! I have no idea on price, we made one prototype, but I'm sure everything will work out perfectly!!!!!!! Everybody line up w/ yo cash, however much that may be!!! WE ARE ALMOST DONE!!!!"

I'm just worried about the water cooling part, but I would buy one and run it with a mech brake - I'm sure it'd support it. Maybe if there is a mini pump and radiator...If not, its possible to just tear it apart and epoxy heatsinks onto the fets...


I know TCS has a little pump and radiator...but its very pricey...

I'm working on getting some micro pumps. I have to get my controllers done first and then I'll move on to the next challange LOL.

The Barracuda works great in cars as long as you keep the mechanical brakes. I assume a Hydra would work just as well.

Look at what Joe said:

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/fefor...37&postcount=9

It is very strange for someone to say that. He should look at how many people have bought the Mambax Max and I know a few places who ran out of stock on them. Which means we the consumer bought the whole production of the MM. Why isn't Castle listening? They should have a vote system at the website to see how many people would buy a HV 240A car version. To be honest, that is not a very wise way to do business. I would never allow a employee to say anything close to that if I owned Castle.

couldn't agree more. I really like there products but there marketing :whistle:

Personally I like the fact that Joe acknowledges that we are going to try to use stuff out of spec and tries to help us with it anyhow. I hate calling up companies CS and ask "if I did this, how would it turn out?" and get "it is not covered under warranty" as the only reply...At least Joe says "well if you do that I'd do this to prevent this, but just so you know, if you do blow it its not under warranty when being ran like that."

I do, however, find it true that a very small, select group of the RC population, basically the users of this forum (which is very small even in comparison to just the electric RC population, in fact), are going to run anything more than 6S on a very consistent basis. And I still haven't even ventured past running 4S on any of my vehicles.

BUT - and a huge BUT here. I think at the very least CC should take Pheonix HV controller, give it some car programming, and up the current rating to at least 150amps, and make it available. It wouldn't hard to do (they just have to wire more fets in to add amp rating - its basically what they did to make the 110 in the first place). The only hitch they should imply is that mechanical brakes are REQUIRED. To be safe they could call it a 10S max ESC and that would be fine too.

Hey, at least they are bringing out HV controllers. The boat guys are crazy, if you look around you will see that they are running the huge lehner and neu motors on ridiculous voltages in tiny boats! A guy did 140 in a park pond with an outrigger for petes sake. I have played with the non-HV hydra and it is a nice controller, can handle 6s and the water cooling does help the heat issues. My 45 mph supervee running lipo and the stock esc/motor does not even get warm. I think that the car controllers are the most difficult to get right due to the massive current spikes and partial throttle running. Air cooling tends to be much less efficent than water cooling. Imagine how cool a car esc would run with a constant flow of 60f air over it. Larger capps seem to help with the heat issue due to partial load, but even they heat up eventually. And we have to remember that not everyone is crazy enought to buy 10s worth of lipos to test out a theory!

Criminy! 50V @ 240A! Never mind R/C, you could use that to power a scooter! :smile:

I've been running HV for a while now. My first HV (Not like HV to current standards) was 12 cells NiCd with my old Aveox system. Most of my HV set up (When I'm not trying to break 100MPH LOL) runs cool due to less AMPs required for an HV system to run. I will put together my HV buggy and run a SPIN 75. I will not use my Jazz 55 mainly because a member have posted great numbers from it in another thread.

Would you mind quoting that in this post? I can't access that from here, but I can pretty mcuh guess what was said from the replies.


I am now running an HV system w/ my MGM and its awesome. Just bc you run 8-10S doesn't mean its automatically high power, it just depends on the amp draw, and if done properly the efficiency is huge and the system stays super cool. I can run mine WOT thru long grass non-stop for the entire pack and the whole system barely gets warm. Its so freaking cool (literally and figuratively) compared to the 8XL system I had before where I had to watch temps and worry about pushing the system too hard.

The efficiency of my system is 94-95% according to Neu's motor calc and my ET data. Compare this to my XL system that was at best 75% eff. I have an amp draw of 45A max, but way more powerful than my 8XL drawing nearly 120A on half the cell count (notice that would equate to 90A is eff were the same, that ~30A diff is wasted as heat.) Even tho my system is "only" 1300W, its actually putting out more usable power than my 1600W XL system.

On top of all that, that means better runtime, smaller batts needed, lighter weight. Instead of buying a 4s2p batt, run it 8S1P and get better results. For extreme speed I'll get a 10S1P 2100 batt, weighs less than 550g, and puts out the equiv of a 2600+W XL system. I don't think I would want to run less than 8S again.

Here is what Joe Said:

"I'll work on the Hydra HV pics gents...not sure if we have some ready or if I'll have to snap some when the pallets get back from IHobby. Those who want a 12s car version are going to have to do an AWFUL LOT of begging to get that. The Monster Max will be good for 6s and 200A...that should be good for nearly all apps...1/10 monster, 1/8th scale buggy (possibly truggy). About the only thing it wouldn't cover is 1/5th buggies like the Baja, and other crazy scratch built vehicles like I saw at IHobby this past weekend in IL....but I'm sure you guys will try it anyways. Let me know how it goes.
__________________
www.castlecreations.com"

I love my cool running HV set up. It is amazing that the only thing I have to watch for are my diffs and shafts LOL. Like you said the efficiency is up there and everything runs cool when geared right.

I don't know what he meant by begging, but it has been over 2 yrs that people have waited for the MMM and almost the same amount of time for people asking for a HV system for cars. That comment by Joe is not right from my point of view. I don't know what other members here thinks, but I didn't like it. What is he trying to say? We are not good enough for HV Castle goodies.

How many people do you know that would buy an HV car controller and use it? How many people actually have 12s setups or even the motor to use it? How about a vehicle big enough? The only production vehicle is the 5b.


His point is that there might be 100 people tops that would actually use it to its potential right now. That isn't enough to develop a new controller. If I made ESCs I wouldn't spend the time on a HV car controller yet, the market isn't there.

WOW.... I mean, WOW....:no:

I can think of a new acronym for Serum to add to the list..they can GFTS.
Maybe that one won't make the list.

I'm not going to beg for @#$&. They can build it or they can not. There are plenty of other companies making HV controllers. MGM, Kontronic, etc to name a few that have been proven to work here already.

We've been "begging" for CC to fix the Neu motor cogging on the MM, and they have yet to ablige that, to make their controller work properly. How's that going?

If the MMM is only going to do 6S, then I have no use for one. I don't need 200A controller. What, am I going to buy 6S 10000mah 20c batts? i don't think so. As far as I can see, that will be no better than the MGM 16018, w/ hopefully better reverse software, and easier service in the US. A 70-100A 10-12S controller from CC would be sweet, then again I already have one and I bet would have better luck "begging" MGM to tweak the reverse software.

I own 2 HV cars right now. I already used 12S in my BPP truggy. I ran it 10S a few days ago. A few members here run HV set ups. It is also not the size of the vehicle as most 1/8 scale vehicles do fine with the right Kv motor. BTW I ran 10S lipos with my Schulze 40.160 and Neu 1521 1y. My 12S set up was the same Schulze 40.160 and the Hacker ION-X motor. There is a lot of people switching to HV systems and if the rest knew the benefits, they would too. One example: I ran my BPP truggy with one 36V A123 pack a couple months back and my run time was 28 minutes. After the run my Schulze wasn't ever warm and my Hacker was only warm. This was in a 80+ degrees day.

Alright, so we have one person on the list. I'm not saying there isn't huge benefits to running 10 or 12s. It just isn't in the normal RC guy scope yet.

Just to let you guys know, Im not against it by any means. I am just playing devils advocate here. If you want the controller built, pool up about 20 grand and get it made.

Everyone already running 4s2p setups already has the car/truck to do it. The only reason to keep low voltage setups is to be able to use NIMH. More serious BL users move quickly away from NIMH anyway, so it doesn't matter.

What is missing is people's understanding of electrical power.
P=V*A
You can get power thru lots of amps (as in LV setups) or thru more voltage. Motor efficiency increases w/ voltage, and less amps also means less resistive losses. The motors are the same, just diff winds.

The net result is a better setup w/ HV. Less loss of power, less waste heat, and more TQ.

EX: my 5S2P A123 setup w/ MM/8XL
117A @ 14V=1628W peak

Now same pack, rewired as 10S1P:
45A @ 29V= 1305W (notice the lower V sag as well)

Yes it is less power, but due to efficency gains its more power to the wheels. Its a bit unfair as the Hv motor is a Neu, but still.

8XL: 70-75% eff
Neu 1515/2Y (1100 kv): 94-95%

Lets just say 70% & 95%: (1305W*.95)/.7=1770W
That would be the equiv power on the low-eff system. What you can also do is run cheaper XL motors and enjoy a reasonable level of eff and cool running on HV. Instead of a 8XL on 4S, run ~14-16XL on 10-12S. Instead of a 4S2P 8K batt, run a 10s-12S 2100 batt.

In the end the costs and weights are close (HV has an edge if done right) and you have longer runtimes as you are not wasting so much power. This is why all the planes and helis go HV for larger scale/higher power apps. There is a point of diminishing returns, but I don't think it is @ 6S.

...or we can just buy the HV car controllers that already exist. Its not my loss.

There must be a reason that you haven't bought the existing HV car controllers already, right?

He has one. I have a lot.

Not many people run 10s+ because there is no ideal equipment to support it, like low kv 1515 motors, a proper controler, a truck that can easily hold 10s-15s lipo, also charging a 10-15s pack in a short time would require more charging equipment than most people have. I would like to run HV again but I will probably stick to 5s-6s unless there is a HV car controler built here in the USA so I can get fast service if it blows.

Well than, I guess there are no problems :lol:


I bet if you give it time they will release one. My guess is that a 12s switching BEC would be developed first, then the ESC would be developed.

See sig below lol

The data I posted is from my ET testing on my Revo. I'm not making figures up. My only complaint of the MGMs is the reverse issue, but that's w/ all. If they tweak the software its a 100% controller. Otello is running a Jazz 55 on 10S A123 and its very smooth also.

Well they wouldn't need to develop a new controller. Just put some decent heatsinks on the one they have and add braking capability to the firmware and such. That's pretty much it. In the event they didn't sell loads of them they could just convert them back into boat controllers. I see no reason not to make a car version.:whistle:

It basically boils down to what people are going to buy. 95% of brushless MT users are never going to use over 6S LiPo! Heck, most people can't afford to go over 6S as it gets very expensive. Castle aren't going to develop an ESC that they're going to lose money on, and I think Joe was perfectly right in what he said. To even release a car version of the Hydra HV is going to be very expensive (time to reprogram, packaging, and hardware alterations that need to be made etc). Like Johnrobholmes said, the market just isn't there. For most users, 6S LiPo setups offer excellent performance and efficiency...and the MMM looks to be a stonking controller. If the market arises, then I'm sure they'll build an MMM HV...but it isn't there. It makes perfect sense...and at this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if Castle stopped visiting and posting on this forum.
All they've gotten lately is complaint after complaint. Though they deserve some of it for the MMM wait, they're now getting flak for not building a HV car controller right away? Come on. The MMM should be an awesome controller for a great price which will probably handle 7S easily anyway, so let's be grateful.


Sorry for the rant, I've had a bit of a bad day...but that's just my 2 pence.

I almost forgot. I also ran my Kontronik 3SL 40-14-32 with 2 36V A123 packs in parallel in my BPP truggy. It ran awesome and being an old ESC it only blew the small capacitor. I will fix that controller and maybe add some more caps and a heat sink (Not really needed).

I was just trying to say that it would be easy for them to convert it to a car version, and easy to roll it back to boat version if it didn't sell well enough. Even if they only sold 100 of them, that's 100 they wouldn't have sold if they didn't make the conversions.

Like one of those "Risk-Free" trials that you see on TV at 3:00 AM.

Patrick Castillo said in rcgroups he would release 2 versions of the MMM. One would go up to 6S and the other 12S. Most companies (Acutally all) that offer HV controllers for car use are based in Europe. If a US company made such controller, then it would change everything. A few people buy a HV controller and only use 6S, but they know when they want to go with higher voltage, the controller is there.

Kinda...

Above 10s is gets hard, but I already had a TP 1010C charger, which can go upto 10S. The hyperion 1210 w/ the LBA10 balancers is also capable, and many people have these as well.

w/ the TP you have to get the more expensive 210v balancer instead of the 205 (for 5S.) If you get the hyperion, get the 2 LBA balancer combo. BPP has it for $220 shipped IIRC. The astro 109 can do 8S too I think.

W/ Hv you use lower MAh batts, so amp rate is lower. The 1010C can do 5S @10A or 10S@ 5A. Its the same. If you had a 10S 2100 or 3200 setup, that's still a 2.4C or 1.5C rate anyway.

I think above 10S is the point of dimishing returns in car apps anyway. The 1515s go down to 1100 kv like I have, tho I could have easily ran the 3D (1360 kv) on my setup and been fine. The 2Y is rated for upto 50V and 3D to 45V.

One thing they could've done is program the controller with a boat and car mode. MGM did it with their car/boat controller. Why can't Castle do the same? Make a nice heat sink with water cooling and options to mount fans as well. Note if Castle does this they actually stole my idea LOL.

That's just what I said at the top of the page! Give it car firmware and some heatsinks and you're done!

He only said that a 12S controller was a possibility, and unlikely unless they got a lot of demand. Plus, he said that if they did make one, it'd come after the MMM. I agree what you mean about voltage headroom, but right now, like I say, most people have no need for anything higher than 6S. It'd be great if they did build one, but at the moment there's no real demand for it. I bet it'll come in time. I'm not against it, but I just don't think Castle should get grilled.

Castle isn't satisfied with a boat controller rebadged as a car controller with a heat sink- they would have already done this if it would work. The startup loads are different, the startup routine is different. A 100 amp boat controller won't be very powerful compared to a 100 amp car specific controller. The burst requirements are vastly different.