Another reason to convert from Nitro - global warming!

[Finnster]

Wow, so much misinformation that you'd think you were getting your info from Hugo Chavez, the Saudi Royal Family or one of the other petrodictators or big oil interests spouting some sophistry.

Volcanoes:

Volcanoes are attributed to release 130-230M tonnes of CO2/yr. It is estimated that human activities released 27 B tonnes of CO2 in 2003, and rising every year, for a total of some 329B tonnes CO2 released since 1750. Simple math (worst case 230Mt/yr) gives you equal to over 1500 massive volcanic eruptions since 1750, and it would take over 120 massive eruptions per year to equal to the current rate of CO2 emissions. Basically one every three days. Where are all these massive volcanoes? By what mechanism are all these invisable eruptions increasing over time (as evidenced by the rate of change of CO2 content in the atm)?

A single large volcano has been shown to cause global cooling for a 1-3yr period after the eruption, yet 11 of the 12 hottest years on record have been in the last 12 years. How can this possibly be? Shouldn't we be buried in ash and freezing our asses off with all these volcanoes going off?

Solar activity:

Solar flares & sunspots go on a natural 11 yr cycle and solar output can rise and fall 0.1%, yet we have seen an accelerating increase in global temperatures. How are you associating a short term fluctuation with a longer term trend? How are you completely dismissing the effects of CO2 levels at their highest concentration for at least the last 650,000 years? The massive %increase in less than a century (a geologic instant) is completely unprecedented.
Known solar dimming periods have not been associated with exceptional cool global mean temps. Overall, the effects of sunlight on the planet are not well understood, cannot be predictive of climate effects (unlike CO2 emmisions have) and many studies on insolation have been confusing or contradictory.

Al Gore, Acid rain and Carbon trading:

Al Gore was also once criticized for being a board member of Occidental Petroleum. If he now also owns carbon credits, sounds like he is an investor hedging his bets, or at least putting money where is mouth is. You too can own carbon credits, tho its not doing well and is about to be delisted.

Besides, if AlGore was an all-powerful machvellian hegemon, shouldn't he have won the presidency and not lost to a one-term Texas Governor, whose only accomplishment prior to that had been several bankrupted businesses, alcoholism, and barely graduating college by the skin of his Daddy's endowments?

Its also ironic that the non-threat of acid rain and the stupidity of cap and trade is pointed to, where acid rain was signifigantly reduced by using a cap-and-trade program for sulfoxide, (which is the model for carbon cap and trade,) that reduced emissions 50% and at 10% of the projected cost. Naysayers also warned that it that it wouldn't work and would be a huge tax to energy consumers. huh.

Finnster's Wager:
God knows if CnT is a good idea for co2, China has to sign on or its no dice anyway, and scientific theories have changed or have been disproved in the past. I do know this however:

Risk Matrix: GW is real/not real vs acting/not acting:

I am right, GW and effects are real, we do act: We reduce dependance on oil from hostile foreign countries, avert lg scale sea rise and flooding and the economic damage, costal area impoverishment, and resource wars that are sure to follow, and the US develops green tech and other engery sources that we control and profit from. US trade deficit shrinks.

I am wrong, GW is not real, we do act: We shift to more expensive domestic energy supplies and economic growth may be lessened. 3rd world countries and non-pact signers benefit from cheaper oil costs due to less demand. Oil companies lose profits.

I am right, GW is real, we don't act: Precipitous increase in global temps, erractic climate changes, extreme weather patterns and coastal flooding. Leads to droughts in areas, mass displacement, starvation and economic disruption. Turmoil eventually leads to war, and US and West is blamed for being principal polluters, terrorism follows.

I am wrong, GW is not real, we don't act: We go on our merry way sending billions of dollars overseas to petrodictators as part of our massive trade deficit, we continue resource-security driven foriegn policy, fighting expensive wars and paying large foriegn assistance payments to undemocratic gov'ts to continue to provide diplomatic support and cheap oil exports in volitile areas of the world that are slowly running out of said resource.

Given these choices, not acting in mitigating our FF-based carbon consumption and pollution seems a highly illogical and counter productive decision.

[JThiessen]

Originally Posted by Finnster

Wow, so much misinformation that you'd think you were getting your info from Hugo Chavez, the Saudi Royal Family or one of the other petrodictators or big oil interests spouting some sophistry.


not acting in mitigating our FF-based carbon consumption and pollution seems a highly illogical and counter productive decision.

Well said - rational thought without insulting anyone. I would have re-looked up that info, but spending more than a few minutes with my laptop during the last three days would have been complete misery (the damn thing gets HOT!!!).
Its been the symptoms that have slowly been making me rethink my side on this obviously emotional debate.

BTW, we shattered the old all time high temp here yesterday - 103 being the official high for Seattle at the airport, many outlying areas had up to 110. If only I'd of stocked up on airconditioners last week - could have made a fortune yesterday!

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by JThiessen

Well said - rational thought without insulting anyone. I would have re-looked up that info, but spending more than a few minutes with my laptop during the last three days would have been complete misery (the damn thing gets HOT!!!).
Its been the symptoms that have slowly been making me rethink my side on this obviously emotional debate.

BTW, we shattered the old all time high temp here yesterday - 103 being the official high for Seattle at the airport, many outlying areas had up to 110. If only I'd of stocked up on airconditioners last week - could have made a fortune yesterday!

Well tried not to get insulting, but did throw in a bit of ironic facetiousness for effect. :)

[JThiessen]

I know I've done more than my share of contributing to whatever CO2 is up there. I dont think anyone is trying to point fingers in any of the debate, and if they are, shame on them.

Redshift - yeah, I know you guys typically get the extremes in both summer and winter - and yes I saw the report last night about your 70 degree weather that you stole from us!! Enjoy it buddy!

I kinda like the stance that T. Boone Pickins is taking - if you have seen his site on trying to not just get away from dependance on foreign oil, but trying to eliminate our dependance on oil period.

Since someone mentioned age, most you dont know that EVERY single president since Nixon has campaigned with one of his mottos being"eliminate our dependance on foreign oil". Not a one of them has done so - or even improved it yet. Mr. 'Bama has at least put down a line in the sand, and I like that his words were "reduce our dependance on oil...not just foriegn oil."

Someone said that 15 cruise ships create more emissions than we (I assume you meant Americans, or did you mean world wide?). If you meant Americans, that would mean they would have to pollute more than approx 4 million gallons of burned up gas a day (for US only), or 16 million worldwide. I dont think so...

I tend to tune into shows like Frontline to get unbiased reporting on issues - and yes, Discovery/PBS/Science Channel will tell you the whole story - you just have to stay awake through the whole damn show!

I also dont see the conspiracy theory crap either (exception being the carbon credit fauxpaux - and the early investors in that are going to loose thier shorts in that).

Science doesnt change - opinions do. Real science is based on facts and research. Thats why it takes so long to wade through all the crap to find the facts. I think everyone is past the Al Gore hype stage now, and wants the real data.

Global warming or not, our dependance on fossil fuels is going to change - likely more due to price of fuel and availability than anything else. China will come around I believe - thier younger generation will slowly start to influence the political ranks (I hope).