60C really?

[Snipin_Willy]

I for one would like to see this topic continue down a civil and technical discussion rather than seeing remarks as MA customers being "noobs".
And aye, it's hard to compete with zippy/turnigy/rhino batteries with their price to performance ratio. I became a believer after I tried their packs in my CRT.5: 4s 3000mah, 20c battery running a mini jammin with a 1509 and gladiators for wheels. 16T pinion to boot. Battery barely gets warm. Best part is they only cost $27!

Oh wait, forgot to post something useful:
It would be wonderful if a standardized testing method was established. But it's going to take a lot of leverage from an organized and funded group to get something like that rolling. Seems like nationally, ROAR would be the only group that could reasonably require battery quality testing to be done from different ROAR legal packs. And think of what that would do to the cost. It's like putting the government in control of health care.....

[sikeston34m]

Always before and even more in this struggling economy, Price is the #1 selling point of almost any product.

This whole C rating discussion. Continuous C ratings versus Surge Watt Ratings. (or whatever you want to call it)

Much like FET ratings, there is an acceptable amp draw that a pack can sustain throughout the life of it's charge. This is especially useful and required for the fly boys.

Continuous "C" rating is a level of amp draw that the pack can hold a certain voltage at for most of its discharge capacity without damaging or substantially shorting it's cycle life. It is a level of amp draw the does not damage it.

We can talk about how there is no standard if we want to, but it is the rating system that has always been used. Accurate or not, given by the manufacturer or given by the retailer.

We can also argue about how it's not standardized. Weither or not discharging equipment is calibrated the same or variables in the tests were not equal.

How a pack performs all goes back to how it stands up under varying loads and is PROVEN on an accurate discharge graph along with pack temperature readings.

An ESC that is rated for 200 amps continuous can handle 1000 surge amps for 1/2 a second. But they don't rate them for surge. They are rated for continuous duty.

A motors wattage rating is based on how many amps on a given voltage it can sustain without failing. It's efficiency and alot of other things affects the final rating. Even then, the actual application changes the entire scenario. We could talk about airflow, the applications ability to shed the motors heat, or we could talk about the load that's on the motor.

The load that is on the motor will be the most influencial thing about that motors rating. Is it a stable and consistant load? If it varies, then how much? How much starting torque is required? Does it soft start? Or is it required to start under full load and instantly go to 100% as fast as it can?

Sooo many variables in the motor rating scenario. How can we come up with an accurate way to rate batteries using such a wide array of applications and motor types? I don't think that's possible really.

This accuracy would depend on that accuracy........blah... blah. But in the end, if things aren't right, there's at least one more person to point the finger at. It's whoever rated that motor wrong, isn't it?

Lipo technology is still young. It's still developing. In the Marketing world, there's still a race going on.

It's not about marketing or awards. It's about performance and longevity.

In the end, it's not just about who can put the highest number on a pack or a cell. For those of us who are educated and do our research, it's always going to come back to an accurate Discharge Graph.

Instead of pointing fingers and making claims of having the VERY Best Product, why don't we work together to aggree on a rating standard?

But that's a secret isn't it? It would place imbalance in the market as it is now. If everyone is open and honest about their packs and how they perform, then the race would change into a price war. Oh we can't have that, now can we?

As far as "buy American" or "This costs more because we employ Americans", let's hope we all do.

The fact of this is though, All Lipo cells are made overseas. Aren't they?

They are ALL imported. Mostly because of the laws we have passed through the EPA, and how we have a tendency to regulate everything, Especially Chemicals.

In the Engineering World, China is kicking our butts, along with alot of other countries.

So how about it? Can we see some discharge graphs?

All this talk about testing...the only number that matters to me is my laptimes. So long as the product is safe and reliable, I could care less what the little sticker on the outside says. No matter what gets printed, someone somewhere can make claim that it's not accurate or not using the same measurement as others.

The testing I want to see is on the track. Nothing else matters. I don't use my LiPo's in a lab somewhere. I use them out on the track, if they can deliver there (and of course they are safe), they get my stamp of approval.

As for the price issue, if you think the prices are too high there is a very easy fix, don't buy them. It's that simple. Not everyone drives a BMW, not everyone wears designer clothes, not everyone buys name brand pharmaceuticals. Often times premium pricing is premium because the seller can get it! If they can, more power to them.

[ClodMaxx]

Originally Posted by Electric Dave

All this talk about testing...the only number that matters to me is my laptimes. So long as the product is safe and reliable, I could care less what the little sticker on the outside says. No matter what gets printed, someone somewhere can make claim that it's not accurate or not using the same measurement as others.

The testing I want to see is on the track. Nothing else matters. I don't use my LiPo's in a lab somewhere. I use them out on the track, if they can deliver there (and of course they are safe), they get my stamp of approval.

As for the price issue, if you think the prices are too high there is a very easy fix, don't buy them. It's that simple. Not everyone drives a BMW, not everyone wears designer clothes, not everyone buys name brand pharmaceuticals. Often times premium pricing is premium because the seller can get it! If they can, more power to them.

i want to know what my hard earned money will help MAKE my lap times be. how do you do that? check the data for each battery first. otherwise it's just a shot in the dark. or don't you research what you spend your money on first?

as for the price - if 2 camaros were side by side (if that's what you like) and one was 20 grand cheaper, but the same thing, would you seriously waste the extra 20 grand on the overpriced one? now how about this: if you had a camaro sitting next to a cheap hundai, but the hundai was priced 20 grand more than the camaro, you'd laugh............right?

Originally Posted by ClodMaxx

i want to know what my hard earned money will help MAKE my lap times be. how do you do that? check the data for each battery first. otherwise it's just a shot in the dark. or don't you research what you spend your money on first?

as for the price - if 2 camaros were side by side (if that's what you like) and one was 20 grand cheaper, but the same thing, would you seriously waste the extra 20 grand on the overpriced one? now how about this: if you had a camaro sitting next to a cheap hundai, but the hundai was priced 20 grand more than the camaro, you'd laugh............right?

I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. Without standards, the ratings are largely meaningless. There are no standards. If the product is not up to the task of it's intended purpose, the company selling it would be forced to make good on that and I'm sure they would discontinue it/fix it. I think it's safe to say that the batteries in question can in fact power our vehicles. If it says 25c or 30c or 60c I don't care, as long as it does it's job well, and does so safely. The best way to see what battery will work best in your vehicle is to see what other guys running similar setups are using. Or you can read tests done in the Magazines, or check results from recent races. I feel that name brand companies hardly ever try to fool people into buying their products. Especially not one's who publish their phone number and address as well as their warranty policy.

As for the price issue, I would take the cheaper camaro if they were the same. The trouble is, in the real world they are never the same. The more expensive one may come with a better warranty or better support or something which can justify a price differential. I make purchase decisions based on lots of factors. It's not always as cut and dry as it seems.

[lutach]

I've seen what their packs can do and it's not pretty. I compared 2 3S 3000mAh packs to my 2 3S 2200mAh packs in the same vehicle and mine put out more power and it still going strong even after some abuse in drag racing. It's only a matter of time they'll realize it's better to be realistic and gain confidence from everyone than to be part of people's jokes which makes them look bad. MA, test your products before putting them out, it'll only make you better in the long run. I would love to get a pack that can hold its voltage better at 20-25C then one a 30-40C that will almost hit my LVC.

[rawfuls]

I think he's saying as long as it works, he could care less what brand, or the sticker says......

I have heard, that most, if not ALL, of the lipos are coming from China, they distribute to us, we slap a label on em, and ship em off, etc...

And I've heard that why Zippy's are so cheap, is that they ship em to Hong Kong instead to the US, Hong Kong, makes a little profit, and ships em off, as bulk...

So either way, brand over brand, they OVERALL should be the same batteries, coming from the same place, no?

[ClodMaxx]

i know what he was saying. but 'i don't care, as long as it works' is pretty generic. 2 different packs could work, and work well....but one could give you a 5 second better lap time because it's just a little better. and in some cases, the better ones are cheaper.

with BMW, you get what you pay for. it's a premium price because it's clearly superior in a lot of areas compared to other cars that don't even belong in the same class. and they don't need a 100,000 mile warranty because it's been proven much less will happen in those miles compared to the less expensive cars that have 'better warranties and service'.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by rawfuls

I think he's saying as long as it works, he could care less what brand, or the sticker says......

I have heard, that most, if not ALL, of the lipos are coming from China, they distribute to us, we slap a label on em, and ship em off, etc...

And I've heard that why Zippy's are so cheap, is that they ship em to Hong Kong instead to the US, Hong Kong, makes a little profit, and ships em off, as bulk...

So either way, brand over brand, they OVERALL should be the same batteries, coming from the same place, no?

If I were to make my own packs, I could make a killing selling at the price Hobbycity sell their packs for. It will always come down to the overhead (all of the Company's expenses) and greed (Profit).

[Finnster]

I mostly agree with Dave, and I don't think this thread should be about how Austin should run his business. He can charge whatever he wants to as long as people are willing to pay it.

If you want to discuss that, it would be better to start a thread somewhere else, call him personally, vote with your wallet, or start your own lipo business and not charge so much.

I do wonder if we are getting to a point with lipos that the ratings dont matter so much in order to get the job done. Beyond 20 or 25C, they are going to be good enough for most people as you are still going to buy a batt lrg enough to get a decent runtime. I don't think this was true last year as an overrated pack (ie a 15C actual rated as 25C or so) was a danger to not being able to handle the loads.

OTOH, this is getting to be an advantage to any disreputable companies who may wish to inflate rating to keep up with market stds, knowing that the product will be ok and most people will never really know the difference.

Hence a need for stds and testing, tho I would never just go a by a manufacturers claims for C rating, just as I would never really believe a car companies claims of horse power.

[zeropointbug]

Electricdave, "as long as it does it's job well, and does so safely."

What is that supposed to mean? I notice that you use Enerland packs, so aren't you buying higher quality packs for more money? No doubt they will do the job good and do so safely, an Enerland pack has been the most reliable pack up until now.

You say that not everyone drives a BMW, well, traditionally MA packs are a Ford Taurus with a BMW price tag (priced the same as the high end packs), and they were crap, didn't perform, and would have one of the highest failure rates in the market (aside for some ebay packs maybe)... and now with these latest packs, $250!!! Where is the data showing it's worth 50% more than a Hyperion G3 pack, which I know to be of excellent quality. MA has traditionally not MATCHED their packs, which is a big no no, and they still don't say they match them yet.

Who knows maybe MA packs now are the best on the market, but from what I have seen, there is no reason to believe so. They aren't providing us with any data or objective evidence to substantiate their claims that "It will maintain higher voltage under load than any other lipo battery pack on the market." and "Highest performance in the industry".

Austin says Maxamps has the least the prove of all battery companies, well, around here anyways, they have the most to prove... and they make statements like best battery on market because they have nothing to lose.

[brushlessboy16]

Holy crap guys.. first off even though i have no preference with maxamps- i have not ever owned a pack, no flaming here. guys you have to give Austin the benefit of the doubt, its a real standup act to come to rc-monster and argue his point.

I applaud you Austin!


Anyways.. I run an e-erevo, alongside 2 other fellows that run e revos, they keep up just fine but i have seen a set of packs puff and get all mushy in a truck. dont know if it was setup or not. Just an observation

As for testing and ratings. I would like to the following

Constant C- The C rating at which the battery holds 3.5v under load...

what ever C discharge amperage in which the batter can hold a minimum voltage of 3.5v per cell at a set starting temerature.

Burst C- Should be whatever C rating the battery can sustain for 10 seconds without the battery puffing or increasing temperature by a set temp (lets say 15 degrees)


Would be something that can be tested and be standard and it is something that most battery manufacturers are capable of doing.


time to start a petition...

[rawfuls]

I agree, I was going to stay out of this thread, but wanted to also give Austin some credit for even coming on here, to argue for his point, though I have not bought any MA packs, due to the cost, and with this great economic, or money downfall, will have to wait a long while before I get the chance to try these out.

[BrianG]

Originally Posted by rawfuls

I agree, I was going to stay out of this thread, but wanted to also give Austin some credit for even coming on here, to argue for his point, though I have not bought any MA packs, due to the cost, and with this great economic, or money downfall, will have to wait a long while before I get the chance to try these out.

I too wish to give Austin credit. It can't be easy to come here knowing full well what kind of abuse he will get.

Threads like this can easily get out of hand with flames (some posts are already coming very close), but as long as we stick to constructive posts, the thread will stay open as far as I'm concerned. Debating points is acceptable, saying "MA sucks" (or similar) is not.

Thanks for all of your input. Frankly it would not be fair for me to pick and choose from your concerns, questions, and negative opinions.

In general, the bigger you become as a company, the bigger the target is on your back. I use to really take this stuff personally but have grown beyond that. I realize that some of your posts are valid concerns but most are just someone on the other end of the computer with no recourse for lying about or bashing on our company. In fact, on several occasions I have found out that the "customer" who was bashing on us in a forum was actually a competitor trying to tear us down.

Most of the guys are stating their opinions as facts. Kinda like us stating that our packs are the best, its all an opinion. We can use our opinion as marketing and I really do believe that we offer the best packs on the market.

Brian- Stating that our packs are "crap", "don't perform", have the "highest failure rates" is basically saying that "MaxAmps sucks." Lets call a spade a spade and at least admit that what is happening in this thread is "bashing".

I have not seen one single person who is posting here who can actually give me a specific example of a problem that they have had with our pack quality, customer service, or company. If I missed one, feel free to call me personally about your specific experience and I will do whatever it takes to make it right.

One final note-

It is really hard to find customers who have had a bad experience with a company who is just starting up or with a brand new product on the market. Even if the failure rate is 50%, if you have not sold any of them, then you would not be able to find any failed packs or upset customers.

I see all of the "lipo manufacturer of the week" threads. Then a few people actually use the packs and the real story starts to come out a few months later. This is not our first rodeo, we have been around for much longer than most of the companies that you are all referring to.

I have tested lots of cells that look great in the first 15-30 cycles and then become worthless. Finding a cell with a balance of voltage under load and cycle life is much harder than you think. Some companies will sell a bunch of packs and then be out of business around the time you need warranty work.

I know that it is fun for some guys to bash on the "man". Just remember that "the man" is a real person and try to treat them the same way that you would want to be treated when you are "the man".

If any of you have actual constructive criticism regarding our company, I would love to hear from you personally. Our toll free number is 888-654-4450. I will personally take your call, hear you out, and address your concerns. People seem much nicer over the phone than they do behind the shield of a keyboard and a computer.

It is also very easy for a guy who can not afford our packs to bash them. Rather than just admitting that he can't afford the packs, he tells everyone that his cheap packs are just as good.

When I was in middle school my mom bought me the cheap K Mart "Spot Built" basketball shoes since that is all she could afford. Instead of telling everyone that, I told everyone that my shoes where imported from France and where "French Nikes". The problem was that I had to explain why they left white streaks on the gym floor while the USA Nike shoes did not:)

Best Regards,

Austin Else
CEO MaxAmps.com