Upcoming Castle Outrunner Motors

[Sammus]

I'm not bias, I want to be convinced otherwise.

AXi 4130/16 Gold:
Can Diameter: 2" (49.8mm)
Length: 2.6" (65.5mm)
Max 8s Lipo = ~30V (Rounding up)
Max Current: 60A/60s

So thats nearly 1800W surge.

Neu 1512 series lists max surge power for all of them at 2000W
They have length 2.4" and diameter 1.53"

Significantly smaller, yet higher surge power.

Even at the AXi's max efficiency constant current (listed as 40A) thats a hair under 1200W, and the 1512's are 1000W constant, and theyre much smaller.

Go to a similar sized Neu, like a 1915: 1.96" diameter, 2.25" long. Still smaller. Constant 1800W, peak 3600W, heaps more grunt, still smaller, and lighter too (14oz vs 14.4oz).

[MetalMan]

Originally Posted by Sammus

I'm not bias, I want to be convinced otherwise.

I guess I don't understand why we need to convince you? Me personally, I have no real data to share. It's likely others here don't either, they just have their experiences. Just keep in mind outrunners in cars are still relatively uncharted which means little quantifiable information.

Originally Posted by Sammus

I understand that, and I'm not trying to start an inrunner vs. outrunner war, I just want to know how theyre better in a car. Can you definitively say that an outrunner vs. an inrunner of similar quality and size, geared to the same output shaft speed will give you more torque at the wheels at the same rpm?

Look after all is said and done, I think outrunners are cool and I want to play with them and experiment, but I just want to know if they actually excel vs. inrunners in any land vehicle applications.

I think the only way that could be true is if the answer to my above question is a definitive "yes".

From my experience, the answer is presently NO. That could change if the Castle outrunners are as good as Patrick seemed to indicate they are.

[Sammus]

Originally Posted by MetalMan

I guess I don't understand why we need to convince you? Me personally, I have no real data to share. It's likely others here don't either, they just have their experiences. Just keep in mind outrunners in cars are still relatively uncharted which means little quantifiable information.



From my experience, the answer is presently NO. That could change if the Castle outrunners are as good as Patrick seemed to indicate they are.

You don't need to :) I guess I'm just asking to be. I just think it's a cool idea and worth exploring, but don't have the $$ to do it myself at the moment :p. So yeah, basically experiences would be good, but most people who have run outrunners have built the car for the outrunner, or changed the car significantly to run the outrunner.

Like has anyone gone from an car running an inrunner, then bolted an outrunner in its place, geared it up to a similar speed, and compared performance?

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by Sammus

You don't need to :) I guess I'm just asking to be. I just think it's a cool idea and worth exploring, but don't have the $$ to do it myself at the moment :p. So yeah, basically experiences would be good, but most people who have run outrunners have built the car for the outrunner, or changed the car significantly to run the outrunner.

Like has anyone gone from an car running an inrunner, then bolted an outrunner in its place, geared it up to a similar speed, and compared performance?

Sikeston 34m has done this with his emaxx. went from a 2826 axi with 22/40 (something like that) gearing to a medusa...

I will say that 99% of people will find an inrunner preferable over an out runner in a land vehicle.

[Sammus]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

Sikeston 34m has done this with his emaxx. went from a 2826 axi with 22/40 (something like that) gearing to a medusa...

I will say that 99% of people will find an inrunner preferable over an out runner in a land vehicle.

Sweet. Is there a thread or post about the experience? I'm not having luck finding it, I found the outrunner e-maxx thread, didn't mention any medusas though.

[Sammus]

P.S. Sorry eveyone who was subscribed to this to read about castle outrunner information. I didn't mean to perform such a significant hijack.

[sikeston34m]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

Sikeston 34m has done this with his emaxx. went from a 2826 axi with 22/40 (something like that) gearing to a medusa...

I will say that 99% of people will find an inrunner preferable over an out runner in a land vehicle.

Yes, this is true. There isn't a specific comparison thread about it, ya gotta read between the threads. LOL

Or just ask.

Both setups use 5000mah 20C 4S Lipo

AXI 2826/8 geared 22/40 - Great little setup. I would have to say the MOST efficient setup I have ran. Usually about 10 extra minutes of runtime than an inrunner setup. This motor will run higher gearing, but temps get "uncomfortable".

Medusa 36-60-2000kv geared 52/18 - Another Great setup. Medusa makes the best inrunners I have ever owned.

It would have been easier to compare the two if I were using an older style feigao 2 pole motor. The gap on efficiency and operating temps would have been large.

When Medusa made this line of motors, they did alot of things right. The 4 pole design is truly superior to the old 2 pole motors. I love my Medusa. A little less runtime than the outrunner, but it makes good power. This setup continues to break driveshafts.

On the other hand, the AXI setup would dominate on short track.

Mike's speed calculator shows these two setup like this:

AXI geared for 30.15 mph
Medusa geared for 33.59mph

I GPSed the Medusa setup at 38mph, so these the calculators figures are a little low.

The AXI setup tops out ALOT faster than the Medusa setup. It's quicker "out of the hole". It will yank the front end right at startup, where as the medusa comes into it's real power a little farther off the starting line.

"when sik said "A super low kv inrunner would make ALOT more torque" I thought he mean than an equivalent size/kv outrunner. Now I think I may have misinterpreted his response."

Sorry, I should have said "A super low kv inrunner would make ALOT more torque than it did before." Not to be interpreted that it would make more than the outrunner.

[MetalMan]

Originally Posted by Sammus

You don't need to :) I guess I'm just asking to be. I just think it's a cool idea and worth exploring, but don't have the $$ to do it myself at the moment :p. So yeah, basically experiences would be good, but most people who have run outrunners have built the car for the outrunner, or changed the car significantly to run the outrunner.

Like has anyone gone from an car running an inrunner, then bolted an outrunner in its place, geared it up to a similar speed, and compared performance?

The application argument is the most important one from my perspective.
For example, right now I am building from the ground up an outrunner-powered belt-driven truggy with no gear reduction aside from the main pulleys. The kv on the outrunner is 360, and it will be powered by a 6s Lipo.
An outrunner would spin much too fast for this design, and would require at least a pinion/spur. One of my objectives with this project is to make it as quiet as possible, not for any real reason, just because I can.

[Sammus]

Originally Posted by MetalMan

The application argument is the most important one from my perspective.
For example, right now I am building from the ground up an outrunner-powered belt-driven truggy with no gear reduction aside from the main pulleys. The kv on the outrunner is 360, and it will be powered by a 6s Lipo.
An outrunner would spin much too fast for this design, and would require at least a pinion/spur. One of my objectives with this project is to make it as quiet as possible, not for any real reason, just because I can.

Yeah, that's sweet. Have you started a build thread?

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by Sammus

I'm not bias, I want to be convinced otherwise.

AXi 4130/16 Gold:
Can Diameter: 2" (49.8mm)
Length: 2.6" (65.5mm)
Max 8s Lipo = ~30V (Rounding up)
Max Current: 60A/60s

So thats nearly 1800W surge.

Neu 1512 series lists max surge power for all of them at 2000W
They have length 2.4" and diameter 1.53"

Significantly smaller, yet higher surge power.

Even at the AXi's max efficiency constant current (listed as 40A) thats a hair under 1200W, and the 1512's are 1000W constant, and theyre much smaller.

Go to a similar sized Neu, like a 1915: 1.96" diameter, 2.25" long. Still smaller. Constant 1800W, peak 3600W, heaps more grunt, still smaller, and lighter too (14oz vs 14.4oz).

All good info, but you have not considered torque. Torque is what gets stuff moving quickly and more torque can change speeds faster. The 1512 will not make as much torque as the axi. The axi has twice the pole count of the new. Now the 1915 has a higher pole count, so it should make quite a bit of torque.

Also, look at the prices... The 1512 is more expensive than the axi, as it the 1915 (by quite alot). And they are for different applications. Axi makes a great outrunner, and castle will have to step up to excede axi's standards.

We can all agree that neu motors are some of the best in the world, so they should perform well. If I was making anything to race i would go with an inrunner, for both construction and performance. If i was making a crawler I would go with an outrunner. As for a dual purpose vehicle, it all depends on the speed desired...

I have a 6x6 maxx based truck, and I run an axi 2826/10 in it. It is geared for about 20mph in 2nd and 8-10 in 1st. It has tonns of torque and can crawl with the best of them. It will also jump and has plenty of speed for bashing, plus it has exceptional throttle control (due to the multipole design and the great firmware on the MM).

As I said, it all depends. HP (watts) is not the be all and end all of rc. Just read a car mag and you will see that the shootouts are not always won by the big number car...

[Sammus]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

All good info, but you have not considered torque. Torque is what gets stuff moving quickly and more torque can change speeds faster. The 1512 will not make as much torque as the axi. The axi has twice the pole count of the new. Now the 1915 has a higher pole count, so it should make quite a bit of torque.

Also, look at the prices... The 1512 is more expensive than the axi, as it the 1915 (by quite alot). And they are for different applications. Axi makes a great outrunner, and castle will have to step up to excede axi's standards.

We can all agree that neu motors are some of the best in the world, so they should perform well. If I was making anything to race i would go with an inrunner, for both construction and performance. If i was making a crawler I would go with an outrunner. As for a dual purpose vehicle, it all depends on the speed desired...

I have a 6x6 maxx based truck, and I run an axi 2826/10 in it. It is geared for about 20mph in 2nd and 8-10 in 1st. It has tonns of torque and can crawl with the best of them. It will also jump and has plenty of speed for bashing, plus it has exceptional throttle control (due to the multipole design and the great firmware on the MM).

As I said, it all depends. HP (watts) is not the be all and end all of rc. Just read a car mag and you will see that the shootouts are not always won by the big number car...

That's why I keep asking about torque :) That's why I keep talking about gearing down to the same shaft speed. Power and torque are directly related via rpm.

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by Sammus

That's why I keep asking about torque :) That's why I keep talking about gearing down to the same shaft speed. Power and torque are directly related via rpm.

At 5250 rpm in a gas engine they are the same (if memory serves me correctly).

As far as taking 1 of each design that produce similar output (watts) numbers and setting them up in matching vehicles that are setup to go the same top speed... You will find the outrunner has more torque off the line due to its design. It should also startup smoother due to the multi pole design. The inrunner may spool up faster, and will feel more responsive once it is spinning. That responsiveness is more desireable in a land vehicle due to its reasonably large speed window. Plus the sealed can and lack of spinning parts also makes it better for the application.

Also, the fact that the outrunner can produce the same horsepower while spinning slower should indicate its performance ability...

Look at a big block gas engine versus a turbo 4-banger. Both can push out 600+ hp, but the big block will do so turning slower and will produce more torque. If you want to do 200mph the slow revving big block may not be the best choice due to weight and gearing options, but neither would putting the turbo motor in a tow truck... And just because the big block can make 700ft/lbs of torque does not mean the turbo motor can...

[Sammus]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

Torque output and ability can be directly related to the rotating portion of the motor, and its diameter. Outrunners cannot rev as high due to their design. However they produce more torque at lower rpm, due to the diameter and pole count.

I understand that, and I'm not trying to start an inrunner vs. outrunner war, I just want to know how theyre better in a car. Can you definitively say that an outrunner vs. an inrunner of similar quality and size, geared to the same output shaft speed will give you more torque at the wheels at the same rpm?

Look after all is said and done, I think outrunners are cool and I want to play with them and experiment, but I just want to know if they actually excel vs. inrunners in any land vehicle applications.

I think the only way that could be true is if the answer to my above question is a definitive "yes".

[Sammus]

I thought for any rotation that power is directly proportional (not equal to) to torque * frequency? Then figured that a motor of any kind will put out a certain torque at a certain rpm, and you look at the torque and rpm to figure out the power output and said rpm.

4-banger? I take it you mean 4cyl not a 4-stroke (as two stroke obsessed dirt bike riders use 4 banger to refer to the engine of superior design). Interesting comparison with the truck, most of the medium rigid trucks run 4cyl turbo diesel motors but I get what you're saying. Low rpm diesel motors vs high rpm jap sports car motor. Still, I think the choice in 1:1 cars is more of a cost thing. A little 4cyl turbo sports motor would go fine in a tow truck geared right down, but they would be stupidly expensive and unreliable compared to a big ol' clunkin V8 whose design hasn't changed for the past 30 years.

[MetalMan]

Not yet. Still too many details being worked out for it to be posted officially.