60C really?

[BrianG]

Originally Posted by austinelse

...Brian- Stating that our packs are "crap", "don't perform", have the "highest failure rates" is basically saying that "MaxAmps sucks." Lets call a spade a spade and at least admit that what is happening in this thread is "bashing".

I have not seen one single person who is posting here who can actually give me a specific example of a problem that they have had with our pack quality, customer service, or company. If I missed one, feel free to call me personally about your specific experience and I will do whatever it takes to make it right.
...

Are you referring to me? I don't believe I said MA packs are "crap", what I have said is that there is excessive voltage drop at much lower than the rated C rate. And I have commented about construction.

One example? How about three:

1: 2s1p 5Ah pack: Even in a light vehicle (~6lbs) geared for ~40mph, the pack got too hot for my liking (130*F at the end of the run) and I feared their life life would be shortened. This is from day 1. At the time, I did not have an accurate way to measure real current draw, but my runtime was right around 35 minutes. That's at 8.6A average current. Pretty high temp for the gentle use IMO. Since then, I've reconfigured two of those 2s packs into a single 4s pack for use in a low kv motor setup (Trx Slash) on 4s to reduce current and keep heat to a minimum.


2: And while on the topic of that 4s 5Ah pack, let's talk performance. Since I reconfigured the pack, I acquired an Eagletree logger and have an actual graph that shows the highest burst value of 61A (which is 12.2C) while the pack voltage fell to 12.48v (3.12v/cell). And here is the graph if you like:




3: I have some 2s2p 8Ah packs. They worked ok in a Hyper8 buggy configured as 4s (saddle packs) with a Neu 1512/2d. Since then I redid the setup and wanted a single 4s2p pack, so I proceeded to take apart the pack to reconfigure it. The tabs used were substantially thinner than any other pack I have taken apart. I was able to seperate the tabs of the "2p" cell pairs by hand, and without trying hard at all. That's not a solid solder job by anyone's standards. And, after bending the tab once, they started to tear. I ended up throwing that pack out. I still have the other 2s2p 8Ah pack, but I won't touch it.


Is that detailed enough?

Like I said earlier. If you have specific concerns, feel free to call me personally.

Posting a graph of a pack that we have not offered for sale for at least a year(5000mah 20C) is not really addressing the current question of our new method of rating the current packs.

I am having a flashback of why I stopped trying to have constructive conversation here on RCM.

Thanks for the feedback.

Best Regards,

Austin

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by BrianG

Since then I redid the setup and wanted a single 4s2p pack, so I proceeded to take apart the pack to reconfigure it. The tabs used were substantially thinner than any other pack I have taken apart. I was able to separate the tabs of the "2p" cell pairs by hand, and without trying hard at all. That's not a solid solder job by anyone's standards. And, after bending the tab once, they started to tear. I ended up throwing that pack out. I still have the other 2s2p 8Ah pack, but I won't touch it.

Now imagine that you have fixed at least 100 maxamps packs... I got pretty good at getting the bad cells out of the 2p packs (6000 and 8000 packs) and re-soldering them up. The tabs are at least 1/3 of the thickness of a comparable spec enerland pack, plus they have about 1/2 or less of the surface area where they are attached to each other. Fun to work with, and certainly not capable of conducting as much as the enerland tabs (regardless of the cell quality the tabs are attached to).

I have seen alot (like 50 packs or more) where 1 cell that was paired to another cell (2p config, like the 6000 and 8000 packs) would puff. No exterior damage to the cells, no shorting out, or anything else that could explain this save for the fact the cell was weaker than the cell it was paired too, and that weak cell was drawn past its limit. I have pulled out these "bad" cells and remade packs with the other cells and they have worked fine for many more cycles. So I can only come to the conclusion that the cells are not assembled to spec very well (poor QC) or the materials used in said cells vary in quality by a large margin.

That is 1st hand experince by me, nothing more and nothing less. I could hand anyone on the street a bare maxamps cell and a bare enerland cell and ask them to visually inspect them and tell me which is better. I know the result, as I have handled plenty of each cell. I have done alot of lipo work, but the majority of the maxamps packs i have handled needed cells removed, while I have mainly reconfigured enerland packs to suit the owners requirements. I have yet to puff or damage an enerland cell by drawing it too hard or pulling the voltage down.

[zeropointbug]

Thanks for posting Austin, and btw, "Brian- Stating that our packs are "crap", "don't perform", have the "highest failure rates" is basically saying that "MaxAmps sucks." Lets call a spade a spade and at least admit that what is happening in this thread is "bashing"." That was me, not Brian who said that... I may have sounded like I was bashing, but that was not my intention, so I'm sorry you felt that way.

Also, if you want to prove your companies product here, would you be willing to donate one of your packs for testing? Is this not the simplest way to go about doing it, the cheapest way? I know that none here will buy one of those packs right now, until we have seen some absolute beyond the shadow of a doubt data we can observe and make a decision based on that. Because, I will admit, the remarks that have been made about MA have been a bit excessive, or slightly exaggerated to make a point on this thread, and it has got us nowhere fast.

So what do you say Austin, willing to donate a tester pack?

[redshift]

Originally Posted by austinelse

Frankly it would not be fair for me to pick and choose from your concerns, questions, and negative opinions.

I really was trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but franklysir, that is an absolute cop-out.

Pick one and address it, not that difficult.

Good day.

[sikeston34m]

Originally Posted by austinelse

Frankly it would not be fair for me to pick and choose from your concerns, questions, and negative opinions.

[sikeston34m]

I'm just wondering if Brian purchased the 3 year warranty with the packs showing in the graph?

If so, wouldn't these still fall under the "umbrella" of support?

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by austinelse

Thanks for all of your input. Frankly it would not be fair for me to pick and choose from your concerns, questions, and negative opinions.

In general, the bigger you become as a company, the bigger the target is on your back. I use to really take this stuff personally but have grown beyond that. I realize that some of your posts are valid concerns but most are just someone on the other end of the computer with no recourse for lying about or bashing on our company. In fact, on several occasions I have found out that the "customer" who was bashing on us in a forum was actually a competitor trying to tear us down.

Most of the guys are stating their opinions as facts. Kinda like us stating that our packs are the best, its all an opinion. We can use our opinion as marketing and I really do believe that we offer the best packs on the market.

Brian- Stating that our packs are "crap", "don't perform", have the "highest failure rates" is basically saying that "MaxAmps sucks." Lets call a spade a spade and at least admit that what is happening in this thread is "bashing".

I have not seen one single person who is posting here who can actually give me a specific example of a problem that they have had with our pack quality, customer service, or company. If I missed one, feel free to call me personally about your specific experience and I will do whatever it takes to make it right.

One final note-

It is really hard to find customers who have had a bad experience with a company who is just starting up or with a brand new product on the market. Even if the failure rate is 50%, if you have not sold any of them, then you would not be able to find any failed packs or upset customers.

I see all of the "lipo manufacturer of the week" threads. Then a few people actually use the packs and the real story starts to come out a few months later. This is not our first rodeo, we have been around for much longer than most of the companies that you are all referring to.

I have tested lots of cells that look great in the first 15-30 cycles and then become worthless. Finding a cell with a balance of voltage under load and cycle life is much harder than you think. Some companies will sell a bunch of packs and then be out of business around the time you need warranty work.

I know that it is fun for some guys to bash on the "man". Just remember that "the man" is a real person and try to treat them the same way that you would want to be treated when you are "the man".

If any of you have actual constructive criticism regarding our company, I would love to hear from you personally. Our toll free number is 888-654-4450. I will personally take your call, hear you out, and address your concerns. People seem much nicer over the phone than they do behind the shield of a keyboard and a computer.

It is also very easy for a guy who can not afford our packs to bash them. Rather than just admitting that he can't afford the packs, he tells everyone that his cheap packs are just as good.

When I was in middle school my mom bought me the cheap K Mart "Spot Built" basketball shoes since that is all she could afford. Instead of telling everyone that, I told everyone that my shoes where imported from France and where "French Nikes". The problem was that I had to explain why they left white streaks on the gym floor while the USA Nike shoes did not:)

Best Regards,

Austin Else
CEO MaxAmps.com

In regards to the first paragraph I bold-faced above - I can give you plenty of first hand experience of maxamps failures, as I have owned about 20 of your packs. Now these were older cells, and given my experience your newer packs do have better cells and have performed closer to their claims. Alot of us here have plenty of experience with maxamps packs, some good, but alot bad. I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, and I will not bore you with my experiences. Suffice to say I do believe that Enerland and their 25c series are much more robust and are of better design and construction quality than the maxamps cells that I have personally inspected. Just my observation. Since you are not a regular on this forum you have missed out the countless issues the members here have had with various products, maxamps included. Many of us have spent considerable money buying and replacing lipos. General consensus is that enerland was the best bet for a pack that did not fail prematurely and accurately held to its specs. Nothing is 100%, but enerland seems to have the best QC or whatever it takes to make a cell right the first time and make it last.

As far as the second paragraph that I bold-faced - I have plenty of money, and have bought alot of stuff based on claims and recommendations. The reason I post here is that I have tried alot of stuff and feel a bit obliged to help people who do not have the money to test until they find something that works. This segment of the hobby is in uncharted waters for the vast majority of people, and some sort of advise is almost a requirement to wade through all of the BS. If I thought maxamps packs were really good, but too expensive, I would gladly say that, cause some people just want the best. However if your packs are comparable in quality to another brand that is half the price, well I have to say that as well. You guys do more advertising that anyone else in the business, that money has to come from somewhere. And while you provide a warranty (Not sure if Jason does but I have dealt with you personally for warranty concerns) I would prefer to buy a pack that does not need that warranty.

My personal experience is that I have put alot of packs through a fair amount of abuse, and maxamps did not end up on top. So for people like me "the proof is in the pudding" and your business model lacks the "pudding" (discharge graphs and comparison data).

I do like the French Nike story, shows that you have a quick wit, even at a young age. I do not wish you any ill will Austin, and I hope maxamps makes its way to being an "industry leader".

[brushlessboy16]

Post your feelings on standardized testing here:
http://rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22596

[rootar]

this was the comparison i liked,

Maxamps 5250 5S 18.5V = $300
Hyperion g3 5s 5000 18.5v= $160

why buy one overpriced pack with a warranty that you know will fail when you can buy to excellent packs and they wont crap out on you.

[Bondonutz]

I can afford MA packs and still own 2, I will never buy another because I can get the same qaulity or exceed it in my Zippy/Rhino packs. I have 4s and 5s Zippys that already have well over 100 cycles and they still balance perfectly or within 1-2 10ths and at a
FRACTION OF THE COST
I club race and bash heavily w/Zippys and have yet to be let down like I have with a couple of the MA packs I had that puffed or wouldn't balance Running in the exact same set up?
All stats and testing aside I've ben let down buy MA and haven't with the Zips. So go figure who's getting my $$, especially if I can buy twice the batterys for the same price.

[sikeston34m]

Very Simple, Direct Question.

Can we see a discharge graph for a Maxamps 60C pack?

[brushlessboy16]

He austin Today, How do you measure and rate your packs. with what rating systems etc. testing enviornment.

I would also like to see a graph of the 60c cells

[suicideneil]

Yeah, thnat was over the line, not even I woulod say something quite that offensive.

That said, now he's gone and made Brian angry, and I've never seen that before..

Ignoring questions about how packs/cells are actually rated, and requests for some graphes (most other companies have graphes to show customers), just makes it look like Maxamps doesnt want to answer questions on its products to alleiviate our fears; prove the packs really are 'the best on the market' with some graphes or Eagletree runs compared to similar setups with other packs, and then we can judge for ourselves & make an imformed buying decision.

If you dont prove the packs are worth the money, we wont buy them (well, the traxxas kiddies and magazine readers will- advertising does work wonders it seems), simple really.

I would like to refer people to one of my previous posts- you can see a 35c cell only performing at 28c in a nice graph....

[ZippyBasher]

I didnt want to start on this but I gotta add my "REALWORLD EXPERIENCE". And NO I am not some other company trashing you because I want to sell my stuff over yours.

I saw you state that if you puff the pack and your were drawing under ther rated current you will replace the pack under warranty... Yet you charge extra for the warranty and the full cost of the pack is not warrantied.

Needless to say I dont have anymore MA packs not because I dont like them and just threw them out but because they ALL failed. (PUFF)

Yet to puff ANY zippies in the same setups, with a lower MAH batt but same 20C rating. (oh sorry I forgot that is meaningless)

If you believe so highly in your product show a graph!