American patriots

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by Arct1k

I have a green card and certainly do not carry it at all times and wouldnt want to - I've been stopped by the police in teh past and produced US driving licence and its never been an issue.

Than you have been one of the lucky ones.

I see no reason to carry a card at all times - I do think it is reasonable to present proof of residency if you are expecting any service from the US gov or commit a crime. This would trap almost all.

Every adult over the age of 17 is required by law to carry some form of ID no matter who you are. That is just common sense.

Couple of other thoughts - I was here on and I94 work visa which is just a stamp in my passport. Would that mean I should carry my passport at all times.

Yes just like we do when living in other countries on a Visa, becasue it is the law. When in another country you are required to carry either your passport with a valid Visa, or a resident alien ID card issued by that country. This is common law in every country we have stayed in so far. Why is this so strange only to the people visiting the USA? When it is routine in every other country in the world? I don't get it.

Surely this would mean legal US citizens also have to carry id otherwise you are an illegal? Yes this is correct! Whats the % of americans with a PP or a driving licence? 100% unless they are just homeless without anything in the world to their names, and even most of them have some form of ID just so they will be left alone.

Does that mean every American will carry their birth certificate? Not at all.

PS My driving licence in NJ at least is only ever validated for as long as my work visa allowed. Hence if I had a driving licence there was a pretty good chance I was legit. However in either of my tickets or pleas at court this was never asked about

That is because too many lawyers are fighting with the US Gov about interfering in privacy matters with immigrants, which is BS. If anyone wants the full benefits of the USA, then they have to give up their citizenship and passport to their birth home and become a US citizen period. Otherwise the immigration laws are spelled out in simple terms for people who are happy to remain as visitors to the US. And most of all these laws are no different than the laws in other countries around the world. There is no special compensation between the USA or any other country unless they just do not care.

[JERRY2KONE]

Look I just want to say that I am very surprized how some people think that they are some sort of special case and should not have to follow the basic immigrant laws of the USA or any other country they may want to visit. If you visit America or most any other country for less than 30 days there is no Visa required, but if you plan to say any longer there is usually some hidden agenda like work, or family ties in which people want to stay once they are in that country, or even something more sinister. These rules are no different from most countries. Some vary in the length of time in which you must have a Visa, but all are pretty much the same. A lot of European countries have the same illegal immigration problems that the USA does, but not to the tune of 11 million illegals. If this were an arguement in most any other countries people would just be put into jail for violating their laws, but with 11 million there is little chance that the USA is going to place that number of people into jail or even spend the money to deport them because it would likely bankrupt the Gov. For those of you who are immigrants in the USA check the laws in your own country and you will likely see that they are very similar, and in a lot of cases even more strict. SO how in the world can you come to the US and demand special treatment and expect that you are going to recieve it? That is just ignorant. Meaning that you obviously did not review these laws before you came to the USA. Maybe you should read them, and follow them, or take your chances like so many others, but when you end up in jail or deported you will have no one to blame but yourself for ignoring them and not knowing what your rights are as a visitor or resident aliean to our country.

[Arct1k]

A quick google says 37% of Americans have a pp

http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/...file_39242.pdf

Worth a skim.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by Arct1k

A quick google says 37% of Americans have a pp

http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/...file_39242.pdf

Worth a skim.

So what? The only reason Americans need or are required to have a PP is if they ever plan to leave the United states for a visit to another country. The large majority of Americans never leave the boundries of the United States in their entire life. That is their choice. No one in the US has to have a PP, but they are required by Federal law and even local laws in each state to carry some legal form of ID, or go to jail for vagrancy. Man I am shocked that there are still people that do not know this, but it does not seem that any Americans are in here complaining about having to carry their ID cards, whether it is a school ID, work ID, Military ID, state issued drivers license, or Gov ID. Americans born in the USA are issued a social security number that follows them for life. This number makes it easy for PoPo are you put it to check their identity. It is only the immigrants who complain of these laws, and like I stated if you don't like the laws then go where the laws suit you. Because these laws are pretty much the same in just about every country in the world except for third world nations who hardly have two sticks to rub together.

[aqwut]

I'm not a US citizen, but there has to be more this that what we hear or see possibly?...

[brainanator]

I don't have a passport, but don't need one as I never leave my country :) I do carry my ID with me at all times, of course.

[snellemin]

As I said before. If it's easy to get a replacement card, I have no problem carrying that sucker with me. My wallet is big enough for one more card. I don't care what is thought of me for not having a card. If you need my alien card, I'll produce it the following day which I've done a few days ago at work. Nobody is going to die if I don't have my card with me. In Suriname it is also easier to get a replacement ID and it's a third world country! What does that tell you?

I don't ask for special treatment. I pay my taxes like everyone else. I enjoy my little money I make in a country were opportunities are all over the place. This country is not perfect, but it's alot better than some and that is why I am here. I choose not to be an American citizen for personal reasons. My kids and wife are. Does that make me a bad person? Does it make me a horrible human being for having one less ID card, just because I use my free will not to carry it. As far as I know, it's my hard earned money that buys me RCM parts and not my Alien card.

[rootar]

i have 6 forms of ID and i carry atleast 4 on me at all times, but im a white boy from arkansas so its not like anyone gives crap about me but, when we had exchange student living with us he carried his PP around 24/7 and two other forms of ID.

[BrianG]

I'm with you Jerry; I think anyone who legally immigrates here from a foreign land should have to provide verifiable proof of citizenship. Is it convenient? Not at all. Is it right? Maybe not. But something has to be done and the system has been broken for so long that fixing it is going to be painful for some. It's going to be a necessary evil until things calm down. Once that happens, then maybe the necessity of having to carry ID at all times will be relaxed. Blame the corrupt gov't, not what has to be done to fix the problem.

Like it or not, we have an illegal alien problem. If the feds had enforced the laws from day 1, we wouldn't be in the pickle we are in today. And I don't blame only this administration because immigration laws in one form or another have been in the books since forever, but this administration is the only one with the balls to actually sue a state for doing what they failed to do. Not only that, but doesn't the Constitution, which the president is sworn to uphold, say the president must protect against invasion and to see that laws are upheld? I'd say on those two points alone that he is a prime candidate for impeachment.

Sure, many illegals are here and are legitimately trying to make a better life for themselves. But they need to do it legally just like every other immigrant who waited in line forever. It's a slap in a legal immigrant's face because they did it the right way yet the family of illegals down the street simply snuck across the border and gets the same benefits they do. I've spoken to several people of Hispanic descent about this topic and they feel similar as I do (to varying degrees - I am a bit more hard-line about it than most).

You can see how we went from bad to worse as you go down the dates of immigration law history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...migration_laws. And this, if correct (as of 2006), shows why California is in the trouble it is in today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal..._United_States

[snellemin]

It's usually the immigrants that do the low paying jobs that others don't want to do. Or it can be the opposite and it's the immigrant that surpasses the native. You can replace an American engineer, with 3 foreign engineers for the same money. Like it or not current America can't do it without immigrants when it comes down to big money.

You can bully me all you want, I will not bend. That is my nature. Sure there are concequences for my type, but this is who I am. Rules are rules. Rules get broken, rules get inforced and rules can change. Change is what alot of people are afraid off.

I am on your side when it comes to illegal immigrants and those that abuse the system to gain free services. Work for your earnings is my motto.

America is just too big to deal with anything down to the "T". There is not enough money for all that to happen. And you can see that even more now in this recession.

[BrianG]

Originally Posted by snellemin

It's usually the immigrants that do the low paying jobs that others don't want to do...

That has been proven to be untrue, especially in this economy where jobs are hard to come by. Really though, it's the companies who hire the illegals that are to blame. They aren't doing it because they can't find anyone to do the job at minimum wage, it's because they can pay under the table and not have to worry about things like benefits, unemployment, etc. In the end, they get to pocket more cash while taking advantage of the illegal situation.

And before anyone says that Americans demand too much pay, I see it this way: If someone is unhappy with their pay, they can go elsewhere, but they should not expect the gov't to support their laziness.

[snellemin]

Originally Posted by BrianG

That has been proven to be untrue, especially in this economy where jobs are hard to come by. Really though, it's the companies who hire the illegals that are to blame. They aren't doing it because they can't find anyone to do the job at minimum wage, it's because they can pay under the table and not have to worry about things like benefits, unemployment, etc. In the end, they get to pocket more cash while taking advantage of the illegal situation.

And before anyone says that Americans demand too much pay, I see it this way: If someone is unhappy with their pay, they can go elsewhere, but they should not expect the gov't to support their laziness.

Brian, I wasn't speaking about illegal workers. I'm talking about what is happening here at my work place. It takes 3 engineers to work on part of a line of products. That line of products equals to 1 million units world wide on average. Lot of money involved. But when you lay off engineers to cut cost, but you still have a product line to get out, you need engineers no matter how you try to slice the bread. One way right now is immigrants.

[snellemin]

Man, you get pretty upset just because I show who I am. Sir, didn't I just tell you that there are consequences for my type? I think I did. Is it an ego? No, it's who I am, which I also told you about. Am I a rebel? No, not in my eyes. Do I care for my family? Ofcouse I do. Will a single ID take them away from me? Lol I don't think so.

Sir, I stood up and told you what I think and how my personality is. It's natural to expect a response like yours. It is what happens when one does not conform to ones ideals. But that is what makes us individuals. It's the internet Jerry. If it wasn't me ruffeling your feathers, it would of been somebody else.

[Arct1k]

Jerry. I'm legal and am happy to prove it but the risk of someone stealing it is higher than me needing it.

I also occasionally do more than 65mph.

[PBO]

Interesting discussion! I know emotions run high on the issue...Australia has similar ongoing concerns about illegal migration, I believe nearly every country or nation does...well except for Antarctica. Australia has chosen a slightly softer path in dealing with residents who are the equivalent to US green card holders. My wife is one & she doesn't need to carry any proof of visa status on her, the records are there if required - she pays taxes, doesn't commit crime - why should she need to prove that she is a resident...she is innocent until proven guilty

The French have a migrant policy similar to the US whereby non citizens must carry & produce their papers on demand. This has led the significant civil unrest, especially among the younger generations, many of whom were born in the country. You can't say to them "if you don't like it leave!", where would they go? what choices do they have? What do you do if the country they were born in, live & work in, pay taxes in won't make you are citizen. You are effectively a second class 'citizen'. Granted the US is different but there are many similarities between US & French residents. The US needs to make a choice one way or the other; move in the direction that's popular here & tighten up borders, restrict internal movement of residents, restrict Govt financial support etc OR better manage the human resource to effectively improve the country for all. If you look at the problem with a more rational perspective, it would probably be more efficient to manage the never ending stream of hopeful immigrants rather than attempt to turn the flow off. They will never stop trying after all & you can’t blame immigration laws for all the problems a country might have

Jerry, not to nitpick but the US doesn’t allow 30 day access. US border control is tightly controlled with ESTA & only certain countries have an ESTA agreement that allows certain passport holders the right to different conditions. And point itself adds weight to the notion that you can only really stop the honest people, those who are determined will side step the rules & regulations. Look at the US prison system, how would a prisoner import drugs into those high security places??? I don’t have a clue but I’ll bet they do & often…very hard to stop a determined person. It’s a big, complex problem that won’t be solved with simple solutions