Inside my full scale AC brushless motor

[sikeston34m]

Originally Posted by BrianG

Is the core a permanent magnet, or is this an induction motor? I would think it's an induction type, which would explain the lack of attracting any ferrous metal within a city block!

Cool motor ZPB! Do you have any specs on it? Like kv, max rpm, max current/power, etc?

No, it's not magnetized at all really.

I've seen this in the forklift AC motors at work. This is also something that throws a monkey wrench into the gears of my understanding.

I realize these are sensor based motors, but I've always wondered a few things:

#1. How does the stator conduct magnetism in such a way to get rotation? I'm sure it's in the winding. Please point me toward more information on this.

#2. Can these be used in a sensorless setup? Do they Generate enough EMF to go sensorless?

Hey Etischer!! I've been following your build on another forum. How funny to run into you here. BTW, we need an update over there, I know some people are very interested in your project. See you! :)

[zeropointbug]

Originally Posted by greenlurker

Hey Etischer!! I've been following your build on another forum. How funny to run into you here. BTW, we need an update over there, I know some people are very interested in your project. See you! :)

haha, nope, not Tischer here, I just used his one pic of the rotor itself, i thought i made a note on it but i guess i neglected. my bad.

But, I am in the talks with him about getting a HOMEMADE inverter for the project, yes homemade! The guy is good with IGBT's and elbow grease!

Haha... that is funny. Well, quite an interesting project nonetheless. You guys are insane... homemade gear of that magnitude?! Best of luck :D

[zeropointbug]

Wow, I didn't expect so many admiring the motor, beauty for sure!

Yes, like Brian said it's an AC Induction motor, and like Lutach posted the specs of a very similar motor, mine is only slightly more powerful (110hp @ 360volt), and lighter (175lb). It's the S20 version, new version maybe? All the Siemens number naming makes no sense. Crazy Germans.

Originally Posted by sikeston34m

No, it's not magnetized at all really.

I've seen this in the forklift AC motors at work. This is also something that throws a monkey wrench into the gears of my understanding.

I realize these are sensor based motors, but I've always wondered a few things:

#1. How does the stator conduct magnetism in such a way to get rotation? I'm sure it's in the winding. Please point me toward more information on this.

This is the beauty of an Induction motor, unlike permanent magnet type, series wound type, or other synchronous type motors, the AC inductions stator coils (stationary) have a 3 phase AC power going through them. Now there are three seperate phases in the motor which are each connected to the ends of the next one (just imagine three people holding hands in a circle), and there are also 6 poles, which if you know anything about Brushless DC motors, you times the poles by the phases... 3 phase x 6 poles = 18 coils, each phase consisting of 6 coils in series, get it? Now, imagine each AC power wave being 60 degrees out of phase to the next one, and then imagine that each coils magnetic field expanding with the AC signal, then from the starting point of the first 'sine' wave (let's call it Phase 1), 60 degrees later the phase 2 starts, then some 60 degrees later the phase 3 coil is starting it's way up. At the time the Phase 1 coil has hit zero again 60 degrees later, it goes into 60 degrees negative wave, and so on, and so on. Now try to imagine all this going on in a circular plane, there being somewhat smooth transitions between each Phase coil to the next... what do you have? A seemingly full rotating magnetic field; imagine having magnets around the perimeter of a motor case and making them spin, spinning field right, well here you are doing it with AC magnetic fields. Invented by the magnificent Nikola Tesla over 100 years ago, some think he was an alien brought here because he invented the 20th century, way ahead of his time.

Anyways part two, the rotor...

Okay, this is super simple really, have you ever had a Neodymium magnet and held it close to alum. or copper plate? Well, nothing happens right? Well as soon as you start to move it, there is resistance, the faster you move it, the more resistance that is apparent. That's because for every action there is an opposite, but equal REACTION (well with magnets it's not quite equal), the MOVING magnetic field in the magnet is INDUCING a magnetic field INTO the very material you are moving it along, the magnetic field induced will naturally be OPPOSITE that of the magnet pole facing it. When you stop moving it, it disappears, when you go, it repels, get it? It's an active dynamic relationship.

NOW, imagine that rotating magnetic field I explained, the rotor is not more than a hunk of aluminum, well aluminum bars actually under that sheathing... anyways, the rotating magnetic field going on around it is INDUCING (hence Induction motor) a magnetic field into the rotor which will be opposite the fields and repel, yada, yada... now to control the speed of the motor, you have a variable frequency controller (inverter), electric car inverters can do 0 - 400 Hz operation, the higher the frequency, the faster the rotating magnetic field is spinning, and the faster the field is spinning, the motor magnetic 'slip' it's called is placed on the rotor, which creates more repulsion, and thus more torque, and power.

My fingers hurt, I think I touched on the basics, err, fundamentals of how it works.

BTW, the rotor weights 34lbs, pretty light really considering how much weight it will be moving!


#2. Can these be used in a sensorless setup? Do they Generate enough EMF to go sensorless?

By now you probably know this answer?

[zeropointbug]

Originally Posted by MTBikerTim

Hey ZPB, Glad to see some progress on the full scale conversion. Have you had any more luck sourcing the controller? I remember that's where you were stuck when I last talked to you.

Hey man, yah, progress, if you want to call it that!

ETischer is the guy (Eric Tischer), if you missed it in my last post, I might get an inverter from him, homemade from industrial inverter and some great big IGBT's.

[zeropointbug]

Hey Lutach, you wouldn't know where I could get a hold of a Simovert Inverter would you? My plan when I bought these motors was to use the Simovert, but Metricmind (North Am. distributor) can't sell the inverter WITHOUT a package motor... nonsense if you ask me. Just puts a hamper on electric car development, you know?!

It's either we buy a MES-DEA inverter (Swiss made), $5500, and he doesn't gaurantee it to operate properly, and we can't change the software parameters either to make it work. Sad situation really, so we are trying to get rid of the motors somehow.

[doo540]

Can some one please post some links to some good forums on full size vechile conversions?

[lutach]

Originally Posted by zeropointbug

Hey Lutach, you wouldn't know where I could get a hold of a Simovert Inverter would you? My plan when I bought these motors was to use the Simovert, but Metricmind (North Am. distributor) can't sell the inverter WITHOUT a package motor... nonsense if you ask me. Just puts a hamper on electric car development, you know?!

It's either we buy a MES-DEA inverter (Swiss made), $5500, and he doesn't gaurantee it to operate properly, and we can't change the software parameters either to make it work. Sad situation really, so we are trying to get rid of the motors somehow.

I'll send Siemens and e-mail, not sure if the electronic components I sell to them goes to the automation devision that makes the Simovert Inverters. You can also look into an AC Propulsion, Saminco, Aveox, Semikron, Sevcon (Depending on voltage you plan on using) or Curtis (Depending on voltage you plan on using). I contacted Brusa to see if they were able to make a 500KW inverter, but all they said they could do was 200KW+.

Edit: Forgot to mention M.S. Kennedy, they have 3 models under motor controls page 2. Not sure if they are a complete system, but it's worth a try.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by doo540

Can some one please post some links to some good forums on full size vechile conversions?

http://www.evforum.net/forums/
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php (I've seen RC-Monster's member(s) there)

[zeropointbug]

Thanks Lutach, I didn't know you were so connected. BTW, it's Automotive division... ;)

BRUSA is a joke if you ask me, for SURE they have the best components out there as far as quality and compactness (inverters are small), but the price.... $22,000 for a 100hp motor?! Come on, and $9000 for there 50kW inverter! How do they expect that to be feasible? If they are going to charge that much, then at least make some high powered units, something around 250Kw+.

Saminco, there inverter is not powerful enough. Aveox doesn't have anything. Semikron, nor Sevcon, I couldn't find any inverter at MS Kennedy, it think you were looking at an IGBT pack, the powre stage of an inverter.

AC Propulsion, I would love to use there system, $22,000 for motor/controller package, with built in 20kw battery charger, 220hp. They designed the power propulsion for the Tesla Roadster.

The best motors though, are made by UQM, they have a 125kw (167hp) motor system which weights 90lbs! $22,000 for motor/controller package. If i had the money, I would use it in my other EV project (light weight, high performance car) targeting 1000lbs curb weight, with at least 120hp, should get you from 0-60mph in < 4 secs, I'm aiming for 3 seconds. Won't be too hard with such a light weight. I'm also thinking of implementing a 10kw generator for long trips, with 200+mpg.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by zeropointbug

Thanks Lutach, I didn't know you were so connected. BTW, it's Automotive division... ;)

BRUSA is a joke if you ask me, for SURE they have the best components out there as far as quality and compactness (inverters are small), but the price.... $22,000 for a 100hp motor?! Come on, and $9000 for there 50kW inverter! How do they expect that to be feasible? If they are going to charge that much, then at least make some high powered units, something around 250Kw+.

Saminco, there inverter is not powerful enough. Aveox doesn't have anything. Semikron, nor Sevcon, I couldn't find any inverter at MS Kennedy, it think you were looking at an IGBT pack, the powre stage of an inverter.

AC Propulsion, I would love to use there system, $22,000 for motor/controller package, with built in 20kw battery charger, 220hp. They designed the power propulsion for the Tesla Roadster.

The best motors though, are made by UQM, they have a 125kw (167hp) motor system which weights 90lbs! $22,000 for motor/controller package. If i had the money, I would use it in my other EV project (light weight, high performance car) targeting 1000lbs curb weight, with at least 120hp, should get you from 0-60mph in < 4 secs, I'm aiming for 3 seconds. Won't be too hard with such a light weight. I'm also thinking of implementing a 10kw generator for long trips, with 200+mpg.

I've been trying to make my own electric vehicle since 1994 when I started messing with brushless in R/C. I was too young back then and now people are too greedy and prices have gone through the roof. They don't have the automotive devision anymore. The Simovert is made in the Automation Devision, I might be wrong as they have a lot of devision and plants spread around the globe.

Brusa is a joke, but they have the product.
Try this: http://www.isecorp.com/ise_products_.../inverters.php.

Saminco has made inverters for record speed runs. Aveox can make motors for good for 150Kw and controllers good for 800V and 200A http://www.aveox.com/Products-Controllers.aspx. Semikron has the Semistack for Automotive use http://www.semikron.com/internet/index.jsp?sekId=356. Sevcon has the espAC http://www.sevcon.com/pages/espac.html, but it's only good for 80V, but you can contact them to see if they can make one for higher voltage. Curtis Model 1238, but same situation as Sevcon. Here is the info on M.S. Kennedy motor controller: http://www.mskennedy.com/client_imag...les/4850re.pdf, http://www.mskennedy.com/client_imag...les/4851re.pdf and http://www.mskennedy.com/client_imag...les/4852rd.pdf. Kelly has brushless controllers too 120V 200A cont. http://www.kellycontroller.com/. UQM was also an option, but their price is up there. Raser Technologies makes some good stuff too http://www.rasertech.com/. There are many others in other countires and there's the system I'll be using for my super car which I can't give that info out .

[lutach]

I just have tons of info on this subject and I can go on forever . Here is a very nice conversion: http://www.electric7.com/.

As for my electric car, I shared some of the basic info with a top engineer at Flextronics Brasil and he was impressed. With one of the ideas I have he calculated a range of close to 500 miles at a speed of 65-80MPH. This was calculated with the weight of a Corvette. The drive system has enough power to push the Corvette to over 200MPH incase any one tries to bring out the "Electric are too slow" crap.

[zeropointbug]

Yup, me and you are quite similar as far as knowledge on this subject goes, except you have a few extra sources I don't. Really appreciate you posting the link to that ISE, the DUO-Inverter! I haven't seen that thing in like 3 years, i thought they stopped making them. It would be awesome for a twin motor hot rod! And they say they can sell the motors separately from the controller?! MetricMind cannot do this, because of agreement with EviSol Europe, and now he is not selling them altogether.

Seen the Electric7.... that guy needs to open up the taps on that thing! None of that granny peddle foot he has in the videos.

Come on Lutach, you and I both know the cost and complexity of a car with 500 miles range and 200mph capable... no easy means about it. What motors would you use? DC brushless? That's the only way IMO, and super expensive LiPo cells, BMS, etc. I have some pipe dreams too, you know. ;)

Have you heard of Shelby Super Cars new Ultimate Aero EV they announced?

Now this is something else, they say they are putting twin 500hp motors, AWD, and 200 miles range... and then when it gets weird, 10 minute charging on a 110volt outlet??? Either they wrote a typo and haven't publicly addressed it, or they don't know what they are talking about, or the third possibility, and my personal preference, they have tapped some sort of unknown energy source, possibly from the zeropoint field vacuum flux?

There first announcement last year, they said it would be 'years' between charging... and now it's 10 minutes on a 110volt outlet? Boy, wouldn't that be nice!


http://www.gizmag.com/lithium-ion-ba...ugh-mit/11244/
Did you see my post a couple weeks ago on A123's new chemistry they are coming out with in the next 2 years? 100mah/g (so thats 7500mah cells compared to the 2300mah M1 cells they have now)... and get this, 170kw/kg power density (400C rate). These are twice the energy density of the best lipo cells available today, these will change the landscape of electric vehicles NO DOUBT!

Check out: http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

If I had the money, I would use two 125kw units for 250kw, and only 180lbs.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by zeropointbug

Come on Lutach, you and I both know the cost and complexity of a car with 500 miles range and 200mph capable... no easy means about it. What motors would you use? DC brushless? That's the only way IMO, and super expensive LiPo cells, BMS, etc. I have some pipe dreams too, you know. ;)

Have you heard of Shelby Super Cars new Ultimate Aero EV they announced?

Now this is something else, they say they are putting twin 500hp motors, AWD, and 200 miles range... and then when it gets weird, 10 minute charging on a 110volt outlet??? Either they wrote a typo and haven't publicly addressed it, or they don't know what they are talking about, or the third possibility, and my personal preference, they have tapped some sort of unknown energy source, possibly from the zeropoint field vacuum flux?

There first announcement last year, they said it would be 'years' between charging... and now it's 10 minutes on a 110volt outlet? Boy, wouldn't that be nice!


http://www.gizmag.com/lithium-ion-ba...ugh-mit/11244/
Did you see my post a couple weeks ago on A123's new chemistry they are coming out with in the next 2 years? 100mah/g (so thats 7500mah cells compared to the 2300mah M1 cells they have now)... and get this, 170kw/kg power density (400C rate). These are twice the energy density of the best lipo cells available today, these will change the landscape of electric vehicles NO DOUBT!

Check out: http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

If I had the money, I would use two 125kw units for 250kw, and only 180lbs.

My set up will use mainly components that are currently available for military use. The battery manufacturer on sells assembled modules to customer's spec with all the BMS and they can even do a charger, but I have my source for the charger. Price is up there, but it'll be a super car and the higher range tame version for everyone else will be much cheaper. Just need to catch some attention first. I'm not worried about SSC, I mentioned them to snellemin and most of the things they say, I've said before they even thought about an electric car. I've read about that new material those MIT guys made, but they have sold it to a company in Belgium so it might not be in a A123 cell. The cells that I'll be using can already achieve over 200C discharge, but I will never see that kind of discharge anyways lol. UQM is nice, but the problem with most of these new companies is that they are public traded and they think they have the best technology so their prices are up there. Imagine if I had a billion dollar in bailout money? I saw a GM wheelchair on CNBC yesterday and just thought it was a desperate attempt by them. Oh well, we can now see how our money is being used . This also proves to us that most if not all of those guys have no idea what they're doing.