MMPro Observations

[Pdelcast]

Originally Posted by micke_b

Could you? ;-)

Also did you find out what MCU they are using? I know that the Mamba Max I have is using: C8051F320. But I think this one looks different. Do you have the part number for it?

Hmmm, why don't you ask me, since I designed the MM Pro?

And why are you so interested in the particulars?

Since you can find all this out yourself with a little research (and I really don't care if you know--)

FET drivers are commodity items now, everybody makes one -- and they all work very well (except for a few notable exceptions...)

The FET drivers are Intersil ISL6700IB. The processor is a Silabs C8051F367 at 50 mips.

The MOSFET is an NTMFS4933 (about 1.3 milliohm.)
(the NTMFS4933 isn't yet released to the public, and datasheets won't be available online until late January, early February. Castle gets the first run of wafers.)
NTMFS4108, BSC014N03s and BSC019N04s are suitable substitutes we may use if availability becomes a problem. (we use a half-million FETs a month, so sometimes we have problems with availability...) There isn't a significant difference in performance with any of these other FETs -- BUT, we do have to change the drive circuit values.

BTW BrianG: The production version shows almost no difference in performance between these different FETs -- the original Beta had an issue with drive speed on the 4108s -- the 4933 version you got had the issue corrected. Once the drive is correct, the different FETs have almost no performance difference.

Anything else you want to know? The switcher chip is an LTC3824 (Linear Tech), with an AO4421 (Alpha Omega Semi) external FET. The main inductor is from NIC. We are using a novel circuit to give variable programmable output voltage on the BEC switcher (I'm not going to give you details about how that works -- figure it out yourself!)
We are using a variable gain back-emf detection circuit. (Figure that one out yourself too!)
The fan and sensor connectors are from JST, and are not chinese clones of the JST part.

We use a TPS76133 (TI) regulator for main processor power (3.3V) -- And there are four total power supplies on the board (including the BEC supply.)

That about does it. Now if you want, you can run over to Novak, or Tekin, or LRP, or HobbyWing, or whoever and let them know. Good luck.

Patrick

[micke_b]

Originally Posted by Pdelcast

Hmmm, why don't you ask me, since I designed it?

And why are you so interested in the particulars?

Since you can find all this out yourself with a little research (and I really don't care if you know--)

FET drivers are commodity items now, everybody makes one -- and they all work very well (except for a few notable exceptions...)

The FET drivers are Intersil ISL6700IB. The processor is a Silabs C8051F367 at 50 mips.

The MOSFET is an NTMFS4933 (about 1.3 milliohm.)
(the NTMFS4933 isn't yet released to the public, and datasheets won't be available online until late January, early February. Castle gets the first run of wafers.)
NTMFS4108, BSC014N03s and BSC019N04s are suitable substitutes we may use if availability becomes a problem. (we use a half-million FETs a month, so sometimes we have problems with availability...) There isn't a significant difference in performance with any of these other FETs -- BUT, we do have to change the drive circuit values.

BTW BrianG: The production version shows almost no difference in performance between these different FETs -- the original Beta had an issue with drive speed on the 4108s -- the 4933 version you got had the issue corrected. Once the drive is correct, the different FETs have almost no performance difference.

Anything else you want to know? The switcher chip is an LTC3824 (Linear Tech), with an AO4421 (Alpha Omega Semi) external FET. The main inductor is from NIC. We are using a novel circuit to give variable programmable output voltage on the BEC switcher (I'm not going to give you details about how that works -- figure it out yourself!)
We are using a variable gain back-emf detection circuit. (Figure that one out yourself too!)
The fan and sensor connectors are from JST, and are not chinese clones of the JST part.

We use a TPS76133 (TI) regulator for main processor power (3.3V) -- And there are four total power supplies on the board (including the BEC supply.)

That about does it. Now if you want, you can run over to Novak, or Tekin, or LRP, or HobbyWing, or whoever and let them know. Good luck.

Patrick

Hi, thanks for the Answer Patrick. Of course I've should have asked you, just took the chanse of asking here since BrianG made me curious with all the pictures. ;-)

Im asking since Im trying to learn how these things works and I have a goal to try and build a esc of my own, but based on a AVR MCU. Sice I really like your products and it seems like you guys know what parts to use I thougth I save myself that trouble. I still have a lot to learn, but Im getting there.

Thanks for sharing.

[Pdelcast]

Originally Posted by micke_b

Hi, thanks for the Answer Patrick. Of course I've should have asked you, just took the chanse of asking here since BrianG made me curious with all the pictures. ;-)

Im asking since Im trying to learn how these things works and I have a goal to try and build a esc of my own, but based on a AVR MCU. Sice I really like your products and it seems like you guys know what parts to use I thougth I save myself that trouble. I still have a lot to learn, but Im getting there.

Thanks for sharing.

The AVR MCU is a decent platform.

Building a good quality ESC isn't an easy thing. We have years of experience with it (Castle has been in business for 12 years!), and are still learning new things every day. Before starting Castle I worked designing avionics for Honeywell and Garmin.

A few things I didn't point out -- the main FET board is eight layers, six ounce copper each layer. Just tooling for a circuit board like that costs several thousand. You don't want to know how much we pay for each board.

The control board is .005" track/track, 2 oz copper, four layers. (that's an expensive board to tool too...)

The heat sink is a custom made for us by Aavid.

If you are planning to build your own ESC for your own interest, great. If you are thinking about getting into the business -- let me warn you. The margins are terrible, the competition is fierce, the distributors make you jump through hoops so they can make more money on products than you do.

Most of the manufacturers in this business don't do anything new -- they just wait for new products to come from their competitors, then they clone them, steal the ideas and designs, and then undercut your (already very thin!) margins. And that's just the western companies -- the asian companies steal your ideas, cheapen up the designs by using cloned parts, recovered parts, sub-par materials (whatever they can do to make it cheaper to manufacture.) There are asian companies selling ESCs in the air market that have selling prices BELOW my BOM costs... Think about that... Their selling price is lower than my material costs ALONE.

It isn't a business you want to get into unless you are doing it simply because you love the hobby. You won't get rich doing this.

[BrianG]

Aw, come on Patrick. We all know you go home at night and sleep on piles of $100 bills. lol.

Seriously, I think CC will have plenty of business despite the unscrupulous competition because they stand behind their product and is based here in the US. The list of such companies is shrinking every day. I just hope we never see CC go the way of Medusa...

[micke_b]

Originally Posted by Pdelcast

The AVR MCU is a decent platform.

Building a good quality ESC isn't an easy thing. We have years of experience with it (Castle has been in business for 12 years!), and are still learning new things every day. Before starting Castle I worked designing avionics for Honeywell and Garmin.

A few things I didn't point out -- the main FET board is eight layers, six ounce copper each layer. Just tooling for a circuit board like that costs several thousand. You don't want to know how much we pay for each board.

The control board is .005" track/track, 2 oz copper, four layers. (that's an expensive board to tool too...)

The heat sink is a custom made for us by Aavid.

If you are planning to build your own ESC for your own interest, great. If you are thinking about getting into the business -- let me warn you. The margins are terrible, the competition is fierce, the distributors make you jump through hoops so they can make more money on products than you do.

Most of the manufacturers in this business don't do anything new -- they just wait for new products to come from their competitors, then they clone them, steal the ideas and designs, and then undercut your (already very thin!) margins. And that's just the western companies -- the asian companies steal your ideas, cheapen up the designs by using cloned parts, recovered parts, sub-par materials (whatever they can do to make it cheaper to manufacture.) There are asian companies selling ESCs in the air market that have selling prices BELOW my BOM costs... Think about that... Their selling price is lower than my material costs ALONE.

It isn't a business you want to get into unless you are doing it simply because you love the hobby. You won't get rich doing this.

The plan is mainly to see IF I can do it. 8 layer, thats a lot.

If I manage to do a Brushless sensorless esc at all I'll be very happy. I think I can do one, I'm working as a software designer so I think I can manage that part, it's the hardware experiance I'm lacking, thats why I asked. How good it will be is another question. I will start simple with a normal brushed ESC and go from there.

Just something I allways wanted to do.

[e-mike]

very great review...i really want one....

Originally Posted by Pdelcast

Most of the manufacturers in this business don't do anything new -- they just wait for new products to come from their competitors, then they clone them, steal the ideas and designs, and then undercut your (already very thin!) margins. And that's just the western companies -- the asian companies steal your ideas, cheapen up the designs by using cloned parts, recovered parts, sub-par materials (whatever they can do to make it cheaper to manufacture.) There are asian companies selling ESCs in the air market that have selling prices BELOW my BOM costs... Think about that... Their selling price is lower than my material costs ALONE.

It isn't a business you want to get into unless you are doing it simply because you love the hobby. You won't get rich doing this.

I've been running brushless for more than a few years now. I have run Shultze, Mtronics, MGM, Quark and some others. It wasn't long ago that we had to modify the ESC's just to make them work properly. Now it is nothing but Castle Creations in everything I own (no mods necessary). Your customer support is top notch too. I have 10 Castle ESC's and counting. We really appreciate your love, keep up the good work!!!

Next, I need a platform that can handle some all out serious speed and a place to run it.

[glassdoctor]

You are killing me Patrick.... good stuff LOL

[J57ltr]

Originally Posted by BrianG

Aw, come on Patrick. We all know you go home at night and sleep on piles of $100 bills. lol.

Seriously, I think CC will have plenty of business despite the unscrupulous competition because they stand behind their product and is based here in the US. The list of such companies is shrinking every day. I just hope we never see CC go the way of Medusa...

Not directed to you Brian but just in case someone wants to build their own.

Just because you can build it doesn't mean you can program it I am sure that Castle has some pretty proprietary algorithms that go along with that hardware.

We still use the old (like before most of you were born) Z180 processor and nobody can touch us (in our field) with our algorithms, doing things that every other manufacturer says is not possible with the equipment we use. My favorite thing is replacing a super high dollar controller on someone else’s mechanical section with ours (because they obsolete every 5 years), and have the customer ask if it’s going to work as good as the other one and I say I sure hope not.

Jeff

Looking forward to try one of these out when they are not like hens teeth

[lutach]

Here is the datasheet. Looks good.

[nitrostarter]

So which of you Beta testers used the MM Pro with sensored motors? And what kind of results?

[gixxer]

I used it with mainly with stock (17.5) to limited mod (10.5). I didn't have any problems with the motors as long as it was in sensored mode. With out the cable attached it would cog on start up.

When in sensored mode I really liked it. Cheat mode is nice for the slower motors. Allowing you to set the timing advance to kick in at a set rpm. Basically allowing you to keep the torque for take off and then advancing the timing for top end.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by Pdelcast

NTMFS4108, BSC014N03s and BSC019N04s are suitable substitutes we may use if availability becomes a problem.

Patrick,

Fairchild has a 30V MOSFET FDMS7650 with 0.99 milliohm. Can that also be a suitable substitute if availability becomes a problem?

[Pdelcast]

Originally Posted by lutach

Patrick,

Fairchild has a 30V MOSFET FDMS7650 with 0.99 milliohm. Can that also be a suitable substitute if availability becomes a problem?

Nope.

The BSC014N03 actually works well. The Fairchild part has serious issues.

[e-mike]

if this fet are used in the mmpro and they are better than other fet's any chance to put them in the mmm to make it smaller.....