MaxAmps Race Edition Lipos

[josh9mille]

Originally Posted by JERRY2KONE

One has to wonder what the priorities are for an advertising executive, marketing Director, and how the relationship is connected to being an R/C magazine editor??? All of that being said why are we the ones asking for this info? I am not trying to bash on anyone, but seems to me that this info should have been already advertised prior to the release of said products. This is quite confusing, and still I have serious doubts that their idea of 150c ratings will match up with what we expect as the consumer. I sure hope these graphs do not just show peaks up in that range which were voltage spikes due to sudden changes in current flow. I do agree that bantering Maxamps is quite pointless, but if this would have been handled correctly in the first place we would not be here scrambling for answers as to what this new product is truly capable of doing. Especially when the claim is 150c, which is well outside of anything possible up to this day in our hobby. In fact 3 times what anyone else has been capable of doing. So excuse us for having doubts and wanting answers. As the advertising marketing director I would have stopped everything on my plate to get this info out to the general public ASAP so as to get sales off and running immediately. Especially considering the state of our economy today.

So, give him a break? For what? Think about if this was your companies bread and butter? What would you do to answer these growing concerns in order to corner the market of LiPo batteries and help said company grow in these desperate times? The more I think about this, the more disapointed I am growing.

I figure for every ONE person (meaning us here on RCM) that knows it is BS, there is 100 people that are stupid and naive enough to believe posted ratings. They will not have any problem pushing this product, there is a sucker born every minute, and those suckers buy MA and read RCCA magazine.

[slimthelineman]

Welcome to a world with zero accountability. Nothing requires them to actually sell the product they advertise. If that were the case they would have to advertise the proof right along with the product. As stated above the sad truth is most people are dumb enough to think because they buy what's in the mags it's the best because the ads or someone said it was. Same old maxamps won't back their product with proof until someone calls them out. These guys should work for the government, they would fit right in. Preying on the naive and will continue to untill they are stopped. They had no proof of these claims before they marketed this product. The fact that dude showed up as we started to question the product is suspect alone. Not to mention if they had proof where the hell is it? If you had it already why wait. Only logical explanation is they are fabricating it as we speak. My guess is we will never see an industry standard for testing. There are no regulations in the industry and no one for the companies to answer to. Why would they standardize it? Then people would start to realize all the cells come from a select few manufactures and just rebadged by the different companies.

[_paralyzed_]

Originally Posted by slimthelineman

Welcome to a world with zero accountability. Nothing requires them to actually sell the product they advertise. If that were the case they would have to advertise the proof right along with the product. As stated above the sad truth is most people are dumb enough to think because they buy what's in the mags it's the best because the ads or someone said it was. Same old maxamps won't back their product with proof until someone calls them out. These guys should work for the government, they would fit right in. Preying on the naive and will continue to untill they are stopped. They had no proof of these claims before they marketed this product. The fact that dude showed up as we started to question the product is suspect alone. Not to mention if they had proof where the hell is it? If you had it already why wait. Only logical explanation is they are fabricating it as we speak. My guess is we will never see an industry standard for testing. There are no regulations in the industry and no one for the companies to answer to. Why would they standardize it? Then people would start to realize all the cells come from a select few manufactures and just rebadged by the different companies.

There are only a few amplifier manufacturers but there are standards for wattage ratings. They came about by customers demanding it. If one reputable manufacturer adheres to a standard they will quickly become the market leader and other companies will follow.

[slimthelineman]

Well let's hope the RC industry follows suit. Not saying it's impossible, but unlikely. I will say it would be nice to know exactly what our packs are capable of. Personally I wouldn't buy one brand over another due to a c rating, rather on how it works in my setups. I've ran neu Hyperion thunder power maxamps turnigy Orion and a few others. For the money I will keep running the turnigy packs simply because they are super affordable and work just as well as the rest for me when I race. It will be interesting to see if this small industry adopts regulations on batteries and ratings.

I would say that if a fully charged cell is 4.2 voltsthen a good rating method would be a sustained voltage of 3.5 under load for 3-5 seconds to get an accurate rating.

[_paralyzed_]

Originally Posted by slimthelineman

I would say that if a fully charged cell is 4.2 voltsthen a good rating method would be a sustained voltage of 3.5 under load for 3-5 seconds to get an accurate rating.

Well, there you go. That's a start. We put a 5 second load on a battery and crank the amperage until it dips below 3.5v. That's an easily replicated test. What should the voltage be? I can't imagine equipment to test these would be that complicated? Like a reverse automotive battery charger?

[johnrobholmes]

paralyzed, I started a thread about lipo standards a while back. The ratings systems that cheap battery packs uses is very similar, although they like to see 3.4v per cell average, 80% of rated capacity at continuous rated current, no overheating, and no puffing. Otherwise, there is no standard.

http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11737

[BrianG]

Standardized testing has been discusses numerous times but goes nowhere. Consistent and repeatable testing would have to be done by a reputable third party. Once such a company and procedure exists, coming up with an arbitrary standard will be all but impossible to satisfy everyone. A plane guy has different requirements than a heli guy or a car guy, and each group can be further divided by how the packs are used (racer vs basher vs top speed).

Personally, I would be happy with a simple graph showing voltage vs amperage vs temperature vs usable capacity. That's it. Let the consumer decide if the graph results are adequate for their needs/usage without having to come up with an arbitrary X volts/cell @ Y current @ Z temperature standard, which will likely change as the technology advances, and makes comparing apples to apples more difficult.

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by BrianG

Personally, I would be happy with a simple graph showing voltage vs amperage vs temperature vs usable capacity. That's it. Let the consumer decide if the graph results are adequate for their needs/usage without having to come up with an arbitrary X volts/cell @ Y current @ Z temperature standard, which will likely change as the technology advances, and makes comparing apples to apples more difficult.

Yes, this is what we need. A method to compare packs in the real world. Most people could care less what the numbers are, just how it compares to other "known" packs.

Problem with this is that once this info was out, you would find a "diamond in the rough" and that supplier would get the lions share of the sales. And I believe it would be an out of country supplier, who spends very little on advertising and can sell stuff cheaper.

Maxamps, for all their flaws, has always had alot of advertising, promotion and presence at local and national electric events. They promote their products well, and get alot of business that way. Most of the bad taste here comes from the beginning, and the obviously inflated specs they had. I am not sure if they still do that, but this 150c claim does nothing to make me think the DON'T.

[PBO]

Originally Posted by BrianG

Personally, I would be happy with a simple graph showing voltage vs amperage vs temperature vs usable capacity. That's it. Let the consumer decide if the graph results are adequate for their needs/usage

I agree, although don't you think that communicating the information is a large part of demystifying the cell/pack capabilities for the consumer?

Simple graphs or X/Y charts provide educated users raw information so they can make informed decisions but they may leave new users in a similar situation whereby savvy marketing can eclipse data

I'd love to see the data displayed in a 3 or 4 field adapted Venn diagram or maybe even a radar chart. I believe this is more approachable for new or casual users & goes a long way toward displaying the most appropriate use for the cell/pack...if the sweet spot matches your intended use - you should be good. In theory!!

[nitrostarter]

Originally Posted by PBO

I agree, although don't you think that communicating the information is a large part of demystifying the cell/pack capabilities for the consumer?

I couldn't agree more here PBO!! This is the biggest problem. While its a brilliant marketing strategy, it's false hope for the best products in my eyes.

I think I gave the example in a prior post of even my LHS owner being misinformed of Maxamps C rating.

If there was a standard Graph or Venn diagram to post the packs performances, then manufacturers could advertise at extreme burst rates if they wanted. The proof of performance would be there in the diagrams.

[rootar]

the "true C" term maxamps has coined is the equilivant of everyone else's "burst" ratings

so realistically we are looking for a pack that can do 70-80c continous with a 140-150c burst rating. Anything less and yes it is false advertising. OF course they can always say that 150 True C is what they deem it to be since they made it up to begin with.

honestly if this pack does 45c continous ill be surprised

One thing i know for certin is that the hyperion vx series has met or surpassed their 35c/65c ratings in every test ive seen, while other 50/100c and 45/90c packs have failed to meet their advertised ratings.

[hemiblas]

So my question becomes when we see the graphs of the 150C rating what do we compare them to? We really cant prove or disprove them because there is no standard.

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed by the new turnigy 5000 mah 20C packs are beefier than the 25C flighmax packs of about a year ago. This makes me think the new 20C packs are going to hold voltage better and last longer. Maybe they are getting closer to the 100A continuous rating they are promising?

Still makes it all that more confusing.

[What's_nitro?]

Originally Posted by hemiblas

So my question becomes when we see the graphs of the 150C rating what do we compare them to? We really cant prove or disprove them because there is no standard.

We don't need a standard to interpret a graph. All it needs to show is V/t @ a constant discharge. Cell temperature should be mentioned, also.

[lincpimp]

If they post a graph that is not true then they are outright lying. Saying your stuff is gangsta is not really lying, just making claims with no way to back them up.

I could say I am the best looking guy on this forum, and even though it is true there is no real way to back it up. MA have never really posted graphs on any of their products. I have seen a few and they were middle of the road specs, not as good as hyperion or enerland. That was a while back so I would be interested to see how the latest batch of MA products work.

I would love to see them live up to their claims, as they are an american company and we need more good american companies keeping the money in the country. Our current economy can only handle so many mine collapses and democrats...

Originally Posted by lincpimp

I would love to see them live up to their claims, as they are an american company and we need more good american companies keeping the money in the country. Our current economy can only handle so many mine collapses and democrats...

James, you kill me man!

Though I have thrown in my 2 cents already on this, James makes a great point. It is getting more and more important to support companies that are American.

I ditched the accounting thing and went to work for a Freight company and have noticed things coming through that are Chinese all the way, things I never imagined would be made overseas at all, like truck and train parts....big parts too, not just silly stuff. (stuff they require to run) I know this is far away from RC Car stuff, but have seen things come through this week in particular and it has been on my mind......