even the flux manual says on 6s use a higher pinion than on 4s

WTF?

If the smaller pinion caused themotor to be undergeared it would heat up. Not sure if that would affect the esc enough to cause it to pop...

Ahh, I though the 25 was stock. Must have misread a previous post. So why do they include the 25t pinion? So you can gear up if you plan to run nimhs? Does not make much sense to me...

Can you link me to a pdf or something like that for that portion of the manual...

Even with the 20t pinon the truck is doing 55+ mph on 6s lipo. That is plenty of load on the motor. A 25t would go past 65mph. I see no reason not to run the 20t pinion with 6s, other than 55mph is a bit much for most bashing situations, and some lipos. A 16t pinion on 6s would be much more manageable, or a 19t pinion on 5s...

Here is a link to where you can download the manual

http://www.hpiracing.com/kitinfo/100646/

Even Traxxas tell you to gear up when going from a 2s to a 3s Lipo

Doesn't this all sort of contradict our conventional logic of gearing down on more cells to pull less amps and therefore less heat?

Nope, they actually recommend you gear down for 6S. That's the opposite of the HPI manual. Here's the BL E-Revo gearing chart:
http://www.traxxas.com/PDF-Library/5...anual_addm.pdf

But take a look at the manuals for the Stampede, Rustler and Bandit VXL's!

And that chart tells you to gear down from stock for a 4s, but I don't see any mention of 6s on there

I think the Blinky somehow can't quite bring the rest of the cells down to that voltage and keep them there. I usually charge while balancing. I too think a balance charger is best but I'd like a charger which actually does something more than a balance, i.e. by pushing extra juice to a weak cell to bring it up to par rather than bringing the others to voltage of the weakest cell, which IMO is very inefficient.

Only way to get what you ask is to use a seperate charger for each cell. Any charger on the market charges the entire pack of cells in series. Only way to equalize them is to put a load on the higher cells and bleed off some juice. If you had a seperate charge curcuit for each cell the balancer would not be needed, as each cell would go thru the cc/cv cycle on its own terms, so to speak.

A vxl esc cannot do 4s, IIRC... 3s max.

Some people have reported running a VXL on 4S and 12 cells with the BEC disabled and cooling fan. But of course that would be voiding Traxxas warranty.

I wonder if the problem is the tires?

maybe they expect you to use phaltline tires with the 25t and the MT size ones with the 20t?

:neutral:

No I mean the e-revo post refers to a 4s set up using the MMM set up, what I meant was the VXL Manuals saying gear up from 2s to 3s (same principle which contradicts what is said here re - gearing down on more volts to lower temps)

example:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...peed_chart.jpg

But I know a lot of people run a VXL on stock gearing with 3s and it's fine.

What we are being told here on the Savage Flux is essentially the 20t Flux pinion is for 4s, we MUST run the 25t pinion on 6s otherwise it could blow the ESC, it's happened on a Maxcramps pack http://www.ausrc.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15868 and apparantly on a Zippy as well http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...os-smoked.html . (Could just be a faulty component but in the case of the Flux blowing they are pointing the finger at people running the 20t pinion and not the 25t)

Now doesn't that sort of contradict the whole premise of gear down, volt up = cooler system???

With this chart, please keep in mind the discharge capabilities of the batteries.

Nimh can NOT and will NOT carry a huge amp load. Top of the line Nimh packs just won't keep up with what quality lipos can do. :yes:

This is a good question for Patrick to see what his thoughts are. I think most of us here agree that going to a smaller pinion on 6S is the more intelligent thing to do. Perhaps the HPI folks just don't have enough BL knowledge to understand that?

It is a typo in the manual. It happens, and this time it will cost HPI a ton of money.

My thoughts exactly. :)

+1 on this... At least that is what I got when I read it.

Actually I'm not 100% sure as they do advertise it IIRC as 62mph out the box...

I think there should be some caveats to this though...

They list 62mph with the included 25t pinion and phatlines...

Yes, there should be. For instance, running the stock tires on 6S with the 25T pinion should be a no-no.

Yep, and the speed calc comes up with 62mph for it with a 25T pinion, 6S and Phaltlines, so it's probably pretty close to accurate.

The manual DOES say that high quality batteries are required and lack thereof can result in failure. The gearing chart is off base, though.

IMO The charts are telling you how to get to the listed speeds not how to have a cool running system.

I think that this charger from Hobby City might do what you are talking about.
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...Charge_Capable

I have one, and it appears to charge each cell (up to 4) independently. There are 4 LEDs that indicate the charge status, and they switch from red to green at the end of the charge cycle at different times as each cell is fully charged.

I have no complaints about this charger other that the slow charge rates.

edit: I just remembered that this charger also does not seem to have any problems with over-discharged packs. I was discharging a SMC 5000 mah 2S Lipo with a light bulb and forgot about it. It was reading 0.0 volts on my multimeter. I hooked it up to this charger, it fully charged it, and it still works perfectly to this day. It may all be in my head, but I think that it works better than before!

Interesting, I would like to get one of these and take it apart... Might be a good product for me as I always seem to be repairing packs and balancing cells individually...

Lots of things can kill and ESC like a bad component
 

This debate will continue as there arent the standards we need to compare batteries. One companies 35C is someone elses 25C. Frankly i really like the zippys and they are holding up so well i bought more. When i compare them in my emaxx and erevo with MMM and 2200CastleNeu 19/52 gearing against the Neuenergy packs the Neus get much warmer in the
same application. The truck "appears" to be performing very similarly with the different packs. no I'm not using a tester but i am comparing straight line visual speed and speed on the track. No i havent had them for a year and a 100 cycles so who knows how long they will last. I can tell you my 6000 and 8000ma max amps have puffed in same application but my 35C8400 maxamps packs have not and seem to be a huge improvement over the previous maxamps technology.
It would be nice if someone like MIKE would take samples of the top batts out there and do some real testing for us then we can pay for the performance we really need.

secondly i have had a bad 2075 traxxas steering servo take out a MMM ESC
so their are many variables. If you want to go 60 you are going to break "something" on almost every run.

problem is that this charger only charges to 2.0A max
 

Cool charger functions but wont work if you have a pair of 3S batteries and its going to take a LONG time to charge at 2amps max.

So based on what is being said here, one should be fine to run it on 6s with the 20t pinion and if anything it should be easier on the system than running on the 25t pinion

so why are we being told that to run on 6s we must run the 25t pinion as is the feedback here:
http://www.ausrc.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15868

Where the blame has clearly been laid on the user running the 20t pinion and not the 25

If anything, if you're going to change gearing shouldn't it be down to like a 15/16t pinion?

And I still haven't had a reply from castle support, been what, 3-4 days now? :( not cool!

that was my point in post #90....

I think that they didnt make it clear enough that when using the 25t pinion you need lighter tires than stock.

But HPI blamed a guy smoking his speedy on running the 20t pinion on 6s not the 25t

here's a video of the incident (can't get more evidence than that!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf00JUvU2QI

smaller pinion for more voltage
 

guys this is math higher voltage needs smaller pinion larger spur = less current = cooler esc. start with a smaller pinion like 18t and see what the temps are like then go up and see where things are. if you want to go 60 things are going to break. better to gear for 40's and things will last and you can focus on driving vs repairing

I agree, if I run 6s I want to gear at 17/18 t pinion but what we are being told here by HPI is that the ESC blew because the user ran the 20t pinion and not the 25t.

That is my point.

We all agree you should gear DOWN for more volts, but HPI is saying gear UP for more volts, and in the continued absence of a reply from castle creations on this matter, I want to be able to stay within warranty. Based on that, I need to throw out all the conventional logic and follow the manual, increase the load and gear the hell out of my motor on 6s?

:surprised:

No. Increasing the load along with the volts is not a recipe for success. Decreasing the gear ratio (more motor turns for fewer wheel turns, or making a smaller fraction, for example: 1-50 instead of 1-20) is needed when increasing input voltage while holding the KV constant. That's true no matter what any manual says.

Thanks,

Lee

As long as you buy quality batteries you can gear up to the 25T pinion and it should be ok. Question is whether you can handle that much power.

So if I use the Zippys but stick on the 20t pinion or even gear down, I should have less issues than if I go to 25t? (Assuming a 6s set up ZIppy Lipo 5000mah 20c-30c)

..naturally that's assuming the motor isn't telling me it's undergeared (which is why the DX3s temp sensor is right on the can)

That is how it works. Taller gearing equals more current draw. No way to get around that. An 18t pinion sounds like a good setup to me...

Wow, this is going to be an expensive F'up. IMO, they should have never sold a RTR truck advertised with that much voltage and speed together on a 1Y motor. Its just tempting the noob public to abuse it and blow it up.

I understand the tech reasons why better batteries are better, but making premium batts are requirement are a mistake IMO. First of all, which exactly are the premium batts? Does HPI/CC supply an approved list of part #'s? I have a pretty good idea being here and playing w/ BL for so long, but the avg kid walking into a LHS to buy a flux will have no idea. Worse off, many manufacturers over sell their batts (one infamous company comes to mind, but not the only one) let alone the things people find on ebay and word of mouth.

So expecting some dude, who just dropped $600 on a new BL truck to go out and spend $300 on a single pair of batts is crazy. They are not going to do it. Esp as was alluded to earlier bc of a decision to have lower specs on the MMM vs other controllers that may be able to withstand the higher ripple voltages.

Have the OEMs visited a LHS recently and really watched some of the trucks brought in for repair? People do really stupid things to them. Some out of ignorance, some out of neglect, and others simply bc they are cheap. (Face it, this hobby is very expensive and you have to find a way to cut corners.) How did they do they beta testing? Giving things to the people that know what they are doing and are careful with things? Or give it to the biggest idiots you can find and let them jump their trucks off houses and let them see if they can break it? The later is far more predictive of the marketplace performance IMO. [Reminds me of the the big banks saying their mortgage backed securities are fine and stable, assuming housing prices continue to rise, then shocked when the bubble bursts and everything implodes]

I've done it. Electric noobs dont understand batteries. A batt is a batt right? ;) I remember the 1st RC10 I bought I got crappy powerizers off Ebay for it and I thought that was expensive.

IF OEMs are going to really jump into RTR BL vehicles, they need to have the engineers go down to the marketing dept and beat them over the head first. Overselling the specs, pushing #'s to their limit is going to backfire. I know its not sexy, but BSing the #'s on a BL = failures, while overstating #'s on a nitro has little consequences. I can say whatever HP on a nitro as no one can ever replicate that #, and it will just run whatever it runs anyway. If someone complains, blame their tuning, fuel, weather or whatever.

Putting 62mph on a box, saying 6S (46K rpm+) on that motor, and giving them a huge pinion in the box to try it is asking for it. I feel better running a MM on 5S w/ an XL motor than that. Anyone that tried that setup on a vehicle here would be told they are an idiot and will smoke their system. You can push things if you are really careful and really know what you are doing, but in the end most of us here run these motors much more calmly (28-32K) and we have reliable systems that perform great.

Don't treat the truck community like they are plane or heli people. They are not. Some are really careful, but many are just out to bash and break stuff. Thanks for providing fodder to the nitro heads to why BL sucks and cant even do what it says on the box w/o smoking or spending endless $100s to get an hr of bash time.

I ditto that.What does BL RTR realy mean.Easily 300.00 for a 4s 6000 High quality battery.A far cry from a gallon of nitro fuel for 25.99.

You people do realize that this isn't the first Brushless RTR vehicle to hit the market right? And fodder for nitro heads proving BL sucks? You didn't touch on anything even remotely highlighting that BL sucks, only that people are capable of making uninformed decisions. I don't see how that equates to "BL sucks". The consumer likes...nay *wants* performance. It's a tried and tested formula, and it won't fail. It's the responsibility of the consumer to use it as how they see fit.

I agree the manual is pretty piss poor at best

They tell you to run "25c" batteries on 6s Lipo

...so my 1800 mah 25C Lipos should be sweet - done

Then I will put the 25t Pinion on because thats what it tells me to do.

The advert says the truck can do standing back flips and 62mph..... I have my 25C batteries and the 25t pinion...

Technically am I disobeying the Manual? no!

This leads to the frustrated user who knows more about nitro than anything else, and the bandwagon mentality of "Savage Flux = fail" starts:

http://www.aussiercbashers.com/viewt...f2b6fadee184e3 <--- A good example.


I admit I have a pair of 3s Zippy Lipos 20C-30C coming for my Flux

But don't for a bloody second think I'm running the 25t pinion on it, I run the 20t on 4s Lipo so if I go to 6s if anything I'll go to a SMALLER pinion and keep an eye on my temps.

18t is the smallest pinion I can run on the kit spur so thats my starting point.

...they complain about drivetrain failure, but they lock the slipper down? They keep punch control at 0%?

..make a bigger truck and they'll make a bigger idiot I swear!

The flux is essentially a ready made Savage with a BL conversion, the 3 main gears in the box that cross over all have "hop ups" available for heavy duty applications

86084 - 86274
86098 - 86275
86097 - 86136
The truck has some obvious cost cutting in there, Phillips Head screws??? Bushings in the steering assembly? The worst 17mm hex hub set up I have ever seen....

The only issue I have with my flux at the moment is I STILL have no reply to my email sent to Castle support almost a week ago now. At a time when they should be at their most vocal, they are the most quiet.

That above all else worries me the most.

That's interesting. I was looking at the Accucel-6 by Turnigy because there's nothing but mad raving 5* reviews for it. But I just read up on the hextronik and quite a few people do claim that it charges individual cells. Which is exactly what I need. And the price seems to be unbeatable too, costing less than a good balancer.

Guys. I understand castle's standpoint here. As far as I understand, the problem is that the zippies cannot handle the current coming back to the batts(they got to handle 540 joules!! in 1-2 seconds). They cannot hold the voltage below 30v(FET max voltage) especially when braking. You will need to give the poor little zippies a helping hand to dump the load/current somewhere. Why not fix the problem by helping out your poor little zippies and any other batts that cannot handle the load? See my "investigating the mmm thread." as I will be putting the info there.