Kinetic/Ballistic Systems

[lutach]

Originally Posted by NovakTwo

I'll email a link for this thread to Bob. His email is a really big secret--- bob@teamnovak.com He only reads forums if someone calls them to his attention.

Lutach, to whom I was addressing my comment, has emailed Bob previously; I expected that Lutach would re-post his questions, and Bob's response here.

All I would want to know is the part number for the ESC's MOSFET, I did post a couple, but it could be different. That way we can get a better rating for the ESC and hopefully all others will follow.

[NovakTwo]

In the meantime, please post the parameters used by other manufacturers to determine the various ratings that you believe would be important in making your purchasing decision:

LRP, Tekin, SpeedPassion, Xcerlorin, CRC, Castle, etc.

Perhaps, when you communicate exactly what you are seeking, we can offer some guidance that will be useful. We have a factory filled with test equipment; surely, we can come up with specifications comparable to what these other companies' are providing.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by NovakTwo

In the meantime, please post the parameters used by other manufacturers to determine the various ratings that you believe would be important in making your purchasing decision:

LRP, Tekin, SpeedPassion, Xcerlorin, CRC, Castle, etc.

Perhaps, when you communicate exactly what you are seeking, we can offer some guidance that will be useful. We have a factory filled with test equipment; surely, we can come up with specifications comparable to what these other companies' are providing.

Castle (18 (NTMFS4933N Ta of 52A) FETs, 6 per phase, but 3 should be added and that gives a 156A rating) and Tekin's rating already has been posted through out the forum and I posted how the Tekin is rated. The Hobbywing (Maker of the Speed Passion) uses the FET that is rated for Ta 32A and it has a total of 24 FETs, 8 per phase, but in a H bridge only 4 should be added which gives it a 128A rating. The LRP uses the same FET as the Tekin R1/RS and the same amount so they're rated the same. The Xcelorin uses a total of 18 FETs like the GTB/Kinetik, but it's the same as the Hobbywing (IRF6635), so 3 time 32A is 96A and like the Novak all the FETs are cooled by the heat sink which should help raise the rating a bit. CRC (Advanced Electronics) is somewhat unknown and I've contacted them to get one, but no answer yet. The others like Ko Propo, Futaba, Keyency and GM, we would need to know how many FETs and the part number as I haven't seen any inside pictures of them.

[lutach]

Is there any way Novak can test the ESC under a constant load of lets say 20-30A for 5-8 minute, but also increase the AMP number gradually to see when it'll fail or come close to failing? That's the avg. I got from testing a few ESCs using a data logger. Novak would also get much respect by getting your sponsored drivers to post a few number of race pace data logging using your data logger. That way we can see the bursts AMPs capability of the ESC. The more accurate the number the better as a lot more people are looking for more speed and a accurate number will allow everyone to set up a vehicle properly and avoid costly mistakes.

[NovakTwo]

Are these ratings approved by, and published publicly, by the manufacturers?

Originally Posted by lutach

Castle (18 (NTMFS4933N Ta of 52A) FETs, 6 per phase, but 3 should be added and that gives a 156A rating) and Tekin's rating already has been posted through out the forum and I posted how the Tekin is rated. The Hobbywing (Maker of the Speed Passion) uses the FET that is rated for Ta 32A and it has a total of 24 FETs, 8 per phase, but in a H bridge only 4 should be added which gives it a 128A rating. The LRP uses the same FET as the Tekin R1/RS and the same amount so they're rated the same. The Xcelorin uses a total of 18 FETs like the GTB/Kinetik, but it's the same as the Hobbywing (IRF6635), so 3 time 32A is 96A and like the Novak all the FETs are cooled by the heat sink which should help raise the rating a bit. CRC (Advanced Electronics) is somewhat unknown and I've contacted them to get one, but no answer yet. The others like Ko Propo, Futaba, Keyency and GM, we would need to know how many FETs and the part number as I haven't seen any inside pictures of them.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by NovakTwo

Are these ratings approved by, and published publicly, by the manufacturers?

Castle's and Tekin's are publicly posted in this and another forum. Their rating is more realistic and I like to use it as a max continuous that the ESC will handle. We all know there's no way a ESC so small can provide a full continuous 100A+ load. I mainly use it to determine a safe and reliable full throttle of the line rating. Now, depending on the application, a ESC will push a bit more AMPs, but it'll be for a couple of seconds or less. Example, one of the ESCs I have here is rated for 100A and I've used it in my dragster and saw a burst AMP of 170A+ for less then a second. The same ESC I used in 12th scale racing in a small track and saw an avg. of 15A during a 5 minute heat.

[NovakTwo]

Originally Posted by lutach

Castle's and Tekin's are publicly posted in this and another forum. Their rating is more realistic and I like to use it as a max continuous that the ESC will handle. We all know there's no way a ESC so small can provide a full continuous 100A+ load. I mainly use it to determine a safe and reliable full throttle of the line rating. Now, depending on the application, a ESC will push a bit more AMPs, but it'll be for a couple of seconds or less. Example, one of the ESCs I have here is rated for 100A and I've used it in my dragster and saw a burst AMP of 170A+ for less then a second. The same ESC I used in 12th scale racing in a small track and saw an avg. of 15A during a 5 minute heat.

Links, please

[lutach]

Originally Posted by NovakTwo

Links, please

Here's a link for the Castle products:

http://www.castlespecialprojects.com...ntrollers.html

Now the rating for the MM Pro might be with the older FETs they had or it might be just a safer rating to avoid people going over what the ESC is actually rated for.

This is what I found for Tekin, but Jim has said the specs in rc-monster or rctech, but I'll search for it and post it.

SPECS: Controls: Forward/Brake/Reverse
ON Resistance: 0.00005 Ohms (brushed fwd mode)
0.00015 Ohms (brushless mode)
0.00015 Ohms (brushed fwd/rev mode)
Input Voltage: 4 - 9 Cells, 2 - 3S Lipo
BEC 6.0 V / 3.0 A
Motor Limit: Brushed and Brushless, no limit
Throttle Profiles: 1-7
Max Current: Brushed Forward, 312amps / 624amps (R1 / R1 Pro)
Brushless per Phase: 104amps / 208amps (R1 / R1 Pro)

One thing that I was thinking is to see if Novak, Castle and Tekin to form some sort of standard rating based on data from in-house testing and race pace with some sort of data logger available on the market (Novak and Eagle Tree for example). Either make a website or post it in various forums and hopefully others will join in and end the higher ratings. Even though they are your competitors, it would be nice to join together to form the first hobby industry standard system of ratings. The some one will have to figure out how to do the same for lipos .

[JERRY2KONE]

Now thats what I am talking about. Sure there may be some resistance in cooperating with competitors, but in the long run it is better for the industry to have some kind of standard to work and choose from when shopping for these items. Great suggestion Lutach. There needs to be some level of trust built up between to MFR and the customer base. Besides its not like you are sharing secrets or anything like that. You are merely sharing a standard measuring platform that we can all understand and use for comparison. Why not?? This is great stuff guys.

Originally Posted by lutach

All I would want to know is the part number for the

ESC's MOSFET, I did post a couple, but it could be different. That way we can get a better rating for the ESC and hopefully all others will follow.

lutach and all,

The part number that we are using in our top of the line ESC is the Vishay SiE802DF which has a Ta=42.7amps and a maximum power dissipation of 125W @25C and 80W @70C. Now the On Semiconductor NTMFS4933N Equivalent spec is Ta=52amps but its maximum power dissipation is only 104W @ 25C and no spec given for 70 C. Power dissipation is very important as this determines how fast the heat gets out of the package. A couple of days ago I ran tests on five ESC's. The GTB, Kinetic, Tekin RS pro, LRP SPX and the Mamba Max Pro. The set up was as follows. Novak 8.5 turn motor driving a 6X5 propeler with all wires on each ESC the same length and size being powered by a 0-8Volt 0-350 amp power supply with no ESC electronic timing advance. The only variable were the ESC's. Here are the results at 7.5 Volt input.
Mamba Max Pro 50amps @ 11800 rpm 236 rpm/amp 31.47 rpm/watt
Novak GTB 49amps @ 11800 rpm 241 rpm/amp 32.11 rpm/watt
Novak Kinetic 48amps @ 11700 rpm 244 rpm/amp 32.50 rpm/watt
Tekin RS pro 51amps @ 11900 rpm 233 rpm/amp 31.11 rpm/watt
LRP SPX 51amps @ 12000 rpm 235 rpm/amp 31.37rpm/watt.
Now as you can see everything is about as equal as can be. This tells me that all the ESC's also have the same internal impedance regardless of how many mosfets are used. I did not have time to do a longer time at a constant load for temp rises but I suspect that this will come down to how well ALL of the mosfets are heat sinked to the outside world.

We have been discussing this max current Spec for quite some time now. We were forced into these years ago by the ridiculous claims that some ESC manufacturers were using for their max current. At that time we decided to use the Mosfet Manufacturers published max current speck at 25C as our published spec. I agree that this still is not the real world Spec but you would be surprised how many people out there still believe that if one ESC will handle 150 amps and another handles 1500 amps they will buy the later. Getting all the manufacturers to agree on one type of test for this spec would be quite the challenge and with all the overseas manufacturers getting involved it would probably be impossible to enforce.
All you tech fans out there have a great Thanksgiving.
Bob Novak

[lutach]

Originally Posted by Bob Novak

lutach and all,

The part number that we are using in our top of the line ESC is the Vishay SiE802DF which has a Ta=42.7amps and a maximum power dissipation of 125W @25C and 80W @70C. Now the On Semiconductor NTMFS4933N Equivalent spec is Ta=52amps but its maximum power dissipation is only 104W @ 25C and no spec given for 70 C. Power dissipation is very important as this determines how fast the heat gets out of the package. A couple of days ago I ran tests on five ESC's. The GTB, Kinetic, Tekin RS pro, LRP SPX and the Mamba Max Pro. The set up was as follows. Novak 8.5 turn motor driving a 6X5 propeler with all wires on each ESC the same length and size being powered by a 0-8Volt 0-350 amp power supply with no ESC electronic timing advance. The only variable were the ESC's. Here are the results at 7.5 Volt input.
Mamba Max Pro 50amps @ 11800 rpm 236 rpm/amp 31.47 rpm/watt
Novak GTB 49amps @ 11800 rpm 241 rpm/amp 32.11 rpm/watt
Novak Kinetic 48amps @ 11700 rpm 244 rpm/amp 32.50 rpm/watt
Tekin RS pro 51amps @ 11900 rpm 233 rpm/amp 31.11 rpm/watt
LRP SPX 51amps @ 12000 rpm 235 rpm/amp 31.37rpm/watt.
Now as you can see everything is about as equal as can be. This tells me that all the ESC's also have the same internal impedance regardless of how many mosfets are used. I did not have time to do a longer time at a constant load for temp rises but I suspect that this will come down to how well ALL of the mosfets are heat sinked to the outside world.

We have been discussing this max current Spec for quite some time now. We were forced into these years ago by the ridiculous claims that some ESC manufacturers were using for their max current. At that time we decided to use the Mosfet Manufacturers published max current speck at 25C as our published spec. I agree that this still is not the real world Spec but you would be surprised how many people out there still believe that if one ESC will handle 150 amps and another handles 1500 amps they will buy the later. Getting all the manufacturers to agree on one type of test for this spec would be quite the challenge and with all the overseas manufacturers getting involved it would probably be impossible to enforce.
All you tech fans out there have a great Thanksgiving.
Bob Novak

Bob,

Nice information. So the kinetic can have let say a max continuous current of 128A or round it out to 130A. Now, since the Kinetic is not rated for higher then 2S lipos, why not use the SIE874DF which has a Ta of 52A? As for getting manufacturers to agree with a standard rating system, why not start with Novak, Castle and Tekin? If others want to get the respect afterwards, they can follow suit, but the only ones who needs to have a better rating would be the following: Futaba, Ko Propo and LRP. Thank you for coming in and posting this info by the way and my daughter and I would like to wish you, your family and the Novak crew a Happy Thanksgiving.

Regards,

Luciano.

Originally Posted by lutach

Bob,

Nice information. So the kinetic can have let say a max continuous current of 128A or round it out to 130A. Now, since the Kinetic is not rated for higher then 2S lipos, why not use the SIE874DF which has a Ta of 52A? As for getting manufacturers to agree with a standard rating system, why not start with Novak, Castle and Tekin? If others want to get the respect afterwards, they can follow suit, but the only ones who needs to have a better rating would be the following: Futaba, Ko Propo and LRP. Thank you for coming in and posting this info by the way and my daughter and I would like to wish you, your family and the Novak crew a Happy Thanksgiving.

Regards,

Luciano.

The reason we don't is that it is only a 20 volt part. The rule of thumb is to use a minimum of three times Vcc for the Vds of the Mosfet in inductive circuits. This is why I don't understand how in the world Castle can rate their Mamba Max Pro to 6S(25V) when they also use a 30 volt Mosfet. That's just asking for trouble.
Bob

[NovakTwo]

Luciano, hope that you and your dear daughter have a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday.

I am blessed with amazing children and grandchildren; and I know just how precious this family time can be.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by NovakTwo

Luciano, hope that you and your dear daughter have a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday.

I am blessed with amazing children and grandchildren; and I know just how precious this family time can be.

Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

P.S.: I never would've thought you had grandchildren. You must be and awesome grandfather as this hobby is an amazing tool for happiness.