MMM availibility date dropped!

[Dagger Thrasher]

Yep, it's been tested with 6S in an E-Maxx as far as I know. This is what Patrick said a while back:

"Monster Max Motor:

Steve Neu design
1515/1Y (first motor -- others available soon afterwards)
2200Kv
3HP continuous output at 6S Lipo (2400 watts input with cooling)
6HP+ output peak (4800+ watts input)
Continuous operation at up to 125C (external) / 150C (internal) without damage
5mm shaft

Our drop-in for the Emaxx hits 60mph+ on 6S Lipo.

Measured temps after abuse run (full throttle to about 30mph, full brake to about 5mph, repeated for full run on 4800mah Lipos at about 80 degrees ambient)
ESC: 128 F
Motor: 172 F"

Obviously they're not doing the other motor winds now...but that seems like a fairly good test to me. :-)

[dirt101]

im in the same boat. I think 2200k/v with 5s is just going to be faster than I want. I used to run 1668k/v(10xl) and it was about all I could handle. but Im still going to get it. Im just going to gear down as much as I can without buying another pinion.

17/40 with close ratio 2nd(locked)
used to run 17/36 wide with both gears.

[jhautz]

heat is one problem, but if that doesnt get you the reduced run time of the high reving motor will. Just try and finish a long main on the high rpm motor.

Guys... If its not available there are other motors out there. Yes I know nobody wants to drop the cash on a Neu if theMMM motor will work, but if the controler wokrks as advertized we are still way ahead. I'm sure the lower kv motors will eventally come.

[BrianG]

IMO, I don't know what the fuss is all about. Yeah, 2200kv is a bit high for 6s, but if you don't want to go that fast, just gear down. For a given battery voltage and vehicle speed (mechanical load) a higher kv motor geared down will draw just as much current as a lower kv motor geared up, and runtime will be about the same. Any efficiency gained by using a low kv motor is lost by gearing high to compensate for lower speeds. Again, this is for a given voltage and vehicle speed.

Plus, spinning a motor a little faster and gearing down is better for the ESC because it has enough rpms at low speed to get adequate back-EMF pulses. A too-low kv motor geared high will spin too slow at low vehicle speeds and may produce cogging. Of course, this theory holds true for better motors like LMTs and Neus (which the CC motors are based off of) - you wouldn't treat Feigaos the same way because of their lower rpm sweet spot.

If geared down and it's still too fast, set the throttle EPA down a tad. Once you get bored with that speed, increase it back up to 100% and you'll be happy again....until max speed becomes boring.

[jhautz]

Originally Posted by BrianG

IMO, I don't know what the fuss is all about. Yeah, 2200kv is a bit high for 6s, but if you don't want to go that fast, just gear down. For a given battery voltage and vehicle speed (mechanical load) a higher kv motor geared down will draw just as much current as a lower kv motor geared up, and runtime will be about the same. Any efficiency gained by using a low kv motor is lost by gearing high to compensate for lower speeds. Again, this is for a given voltage and vehicle speed.

Plus, spinning a motor a little faster and gearing down is better for the ESC because it has enough rpms at low speed to get adequate back-EMF pulses. A too-low kv motor geared high will spin too slow at low vehicle speeds and may produce cogging. Of course, this theory holds true for better motors like LMTs and Neus (which the CC motors are based off of) - you wouldn't treat Feigaos the same way because of their lower rpm sweet spot.

If geared down and it's still too fast, set the throttle EPA down a tad. Once you get bored with that speed, increase it back up to 100% and you'll be happy again....until max speed becomes boring.

Yes you can make anything "work". But the point is that a 2200kv motor on 6s is FAR from optimal. I personally wouldn't even consider running the motor at almost 50K rpm on a consistent basis. I don't care how great the motor is. That's just asking for problems.

I don't have any data to offer here, but I sure would be interested to see how spinning a 2200kv motor on 6s at ~50K rpm is just as efficient as spinning a 1500kv motor at ~35K rpm. Even with the gearing compensated to drive the vehicle at the same overall speed theoretically. Why wouldn't we all just run all of our motors at 50K rpm then? It creates heat generated by the increased inefficiency. Not to mention really narrowing the gearing window you have to work with. With a high quality motor spinning at a reasonable rpm on the correct voltage the gearing options up and down from the "optimal" setup is quite large. Even with the high end motors once you start taking one of the parameters out side of the optimal range (in this case the rpm) you start to limit your flexibility on the other setup parameters.

I see that they test report that someone gave onthe temps after a hard beating run on 6s and they were still within limits, but now take that gearing and go up or down a coulple teeth. I gaurantee you dont get temps still in spec. If you had a properly matched battery and motor you will gain alot of flexability in your setup.


Bottom line... can you make it work? Yes. Would it be better to have a properly specified motor for the voltage you want to run? Yes. Would I run the 2200kv motor on 6s as an everyday set up. No. Would I spend my money on a system that I know from the get go isnt "right"? NO. Just my opinon.

[lincpimp]

To me the 2200 kv motor looks to be perfect for 5s for normal running, it would be geared slightly lower than an 9xl on 5s, but not much different.

You would then have the option of running it on 6s for speed runs or the like. For track use, most seem to think that 4s and a 2200kv motor is enough, but all they are trying to do is run at nitro speed, mainly cause that is all the track is designed for, and the vehicle may not be able to handle the extra speed.

A lower kv motor like 1800-1900 kv would be optimium for 6s, IMO. I routinely push my 7xl over 35k rpm, truck is geared for 40mph. I see no reason why a higher quality motor could not handle 40k rpm.

On a side note, does anyone here run a 1515 on 6s lipo in a maxx or revo truck? Seems like too much motor, but I guess the gearing will detirmine the load. And the motor should run cooler.

[johnrobholmes]

Why not a 4s or 5s setup? It is just as expensive to get a new battery as it is a (nice) new motor, maybe even cheaper. If they came out with a 1500kv motor we would have just as many complaints that it wasn't fast enough! With the initial 2200kv motor release, the 6s max MMM voltage will be able to squeeze the most out of the system RPM wise. Sure it might not be optimal for every vehicle, but name ONE motor that is.

[jhautz]

Originally Posted by johnrobholmes

Sure it might not be optimal for every vehicle, but name ONE motor that is.

Exactly.


In reality, I personally dont really care what motor they offer at this point. Just get the controller released. Motor chioce is not the problem, there are tons of options for motor choice. Its getting a controller that performs the way we want, and if the controller can handle a 1515 sized motor with those kinds of rpms and vehicle speeds I cant wait to get my hands on one.

[BrianG]

The main thing to look at is the efficiency "band" of a particular motor. I wouldn't dream of running Feigaos at anywhere near that speed, but a better quality motor surely can handle it fine and remain in its efficiency band. IIRC, the motor program Griffin posted a while back shows that the 15xx Neus are quite efficient at speeds upwards of 50k+. Granted, I am assuming that the CC Neu-based motors will have similar characteristics as a "real" Neu, but it should be somewhat close.

And don't forget that the total rpm will be affected by the current draw. Higher currents = lower real kv value.

And we can't just look at pure unloaded rpm efficiency. There is also load efficiency too. A motor running at it's sweet rpm, but loaded heavily by tall gearing may be just as inefficient as the same motor running slightly higher rpm but geared more ideally.

I guess we won't know exactly how these motors will perform until the system is released and someone can get some numbers posted, but I don't think it will be as bad as some think...

[cart213]

Everyone tosses around the 35K rpm rule as if it's one of the Ten Commandments of brushless. "Thou shalt not exceed 35,000 rpm, or thine motor shall surely suffer!"

Maybe it's true, maybe not. I know it applies to a low quality motor like a Feigao, but what about a high quality Neu? I've never seen a detailed study showing motor temps at different speeds. Neu rates their motors at 60K max. I don't know if that has anthing to do with efficency, or if that is simply the limits of the bearings.

I do know that the mildest MM motor, the 4600, spins at 34,000 rpm with only a 2S lipo. And we all know that most people run MM motors at much higher rpm's than this. Are there different rules for a 1/10 motor vs. a 1/8 motor? I know that the bigger motor has a higher rotational inertia, but how much does that affect the efficiency of the motor at a certain rpm?

Until we see this new motor in action, none of us really knows how well it will run on 6S. I'm sure it won't be too bad, though, or Castle wouldn't risk the potential warranty costs.

With all that said, I still hope the 1700 and 1500 motors come out soon.


edit: Brian, you beat me to my point!

[bdebde]

The only problem I see with the 2200kv motor, is gearing low enough in some setups due to motor running into something before a small pinion meshes. Other than that I have no problem running 50,000 if the motor can handle it. I run Big Maxximum (2300kv) on 6s no problem, and have even run a 7XL (similar kv) on 6s as well. Of course the XL will get much hotter than a better motor, but it gets no hotter than it did on 4s!

[crazyjr]

I already have the 2.5/1515 (1700kv) on 4s its a bit slow (20/51, maxx/gorilla tranny w/1/8 buggy diffs) I know mike makes a 22 and 24 pinions, on 5s its awsome with the same gearing. I like the 2200kv motor for 4s racing, My track runs RC Pro rules and that will allow me to run my electrics in nitro. Whoever said that speeds to match Nitro's is correct, my 5s powered revo is just too much for the track, it accelerates faster than my V-spec 8T, which is very impressive for a .21 truggy

[gixxer]

I think some of us are going to be a little disappointed because we thought they were going to release different motor options.
I will be happy to finally have a reliable esc with built in bec. I personally wanted the 1500kv motor, and wouldn't of sold two of my neu's if I knew this a few weeks ago.
Now I am glad that I atleast kept one neu (1512 3d).

[tom255]

I think some of us are going to be a little disappointed because we thought they were going to release different motor options.

As sombody told: "You can satisfy one people but not many of them at once"

Be patient and for sure other motor options will come, 1500KV/1800kv/2200KV and everybody will be happy :)

[DrKnow65]

"You can make some of the people happy, some of the time. But you can't make all of the people happy, all of the time."

2200KV is fine. I could even see CC keeping the lower KV motors for later just to keep the public from going past 6S for fear of killing their low cost neu style motor. Sooner (than) later there will be guy's like GriffenRU who will figure out how to run the MMM on 8S <warantee gone> and will need lower KV stuff, so castle will see the $$$ in putting them out.

As for a power packiage for converting 1/8th nitro's I thing 6S and 2200KV will be just right.