RX8 or MMM combo?

[Aceldama]

Originally Posted by hootie7159

ALCEDAMA the 2200kv cc Nue motor works just as efficiently as a genuine NEU (I've own both in 2200kv form) and I really couldn't tell the difference IMOH...

When did I question the quality/efficiency of the CC/Neu?. This is getting frustrating, I'm saying (over and over) that 2200kv is A LOT OF KV FOR 6S LIPO.

There's a reason why Tekin is offering a range of KV choices that ranges from 1350kv. It's for people who want to run 6s lipo.

Hell, using BrianG's calc the only way I'd get the 2200 motor down to 40mph on 6s in my MBX5T is with the RCM 9t pinion (smallest pinion available) and I don't know if that would even fit.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by Edumakated

It seems as nothing anyone tells you from their experience with both systems is going to matter. You obviously are 100% sold on the MMM. Like I said, if you are just bashing around with your MMM, it will serve you well. However, those of us that race have found the Tekin system to be better suited for the track.

You do not read well do you. I am not dogging the tekin system, only the arrogance behind the arguments. I also own a tekin controller and like it, so how does that make me 100% sold on CC period. I could have used a sidewinder or MM for my purposes.

Originally Posted by Edumakated

Regarding the efficiency comment, I compared my burn rate per minute with my Neu vs my Tekin and it is almost identical, even though the Tekin was laying down a little more power in my opinion.

Which prove nothing as far as efficiency goes. Get some data logging done then I will pay attention. What your saying is as ridiculous as the people on the Traxxas forums who claim their single VXL revo goes X mph just by looking at it.

All I am asking for is people to post up FACT to base their arguments and opinions on.

I also will say this again, putting a sensored system up against a sensorless system and comparing smoothness is apples to oranges. Seeing as the MMM will not run sensored, I would like to see reports of how the Tekin does running completely sensorless. Or like I said it can wait until the MM Pro comes out for a more fair comparison.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by Aceldama

I hear what you're saying, but 2200kv at 6s is 55,000 RPM and leaves me little room for gearing options. No amount of software tweaking is going to change that.

I get what your saying but look at it this way.

My FLM stampede I had geared for 60 mph running the MM. However, when not doing speed runs and/or letting other people use it this was unrealistic. So my solution is that I had different saved profiles for what I was doing.

I would lower the throttle curve to only allow full power just towards the end of the curve. I would also reduce start power and adjust the punch control. It was very easy for me to control my finger from neutral to 3/4 throttle at which point the truck would only do about 30. If I wanted more there was that last point I could get between 3/4 and full. The same can be done with the MMM and 2200 motor. Gear for 50-55, then adjust the software according to your needs.

To me it's just another way of looking at and solving the problem, not the only way. Some can do it by KV, some by voltage, and some by software, yet others by a combination of the 3. I just pointing out that there are other ways. Whatever way you choose is fine, just don't forget that may not be the only answer.

Originally Posted by TexasSP

You do not read well do you. I am not dogging the tekin system, only the arrogance behind the arguments. I also own a tekin controller and like it, so how does that make me 100% sold on CC period. I could have used a sidewinder or MM for my purposes.



Which prove nothing as far as efficiency goes. Get some data logging done then I will pay attention. What your saying is as ridiculous as the people on the Traxxas forums who claim their single VXL revo goes X mph just by looking at it.

All I am asking for is people to post up FACT to base their arguments and opinions on.

I also will say this again, putting a sensored system up against a sensorless system and comparing smoothness is apples to oranges. Seeing as the MMM will not run sensored, I would like to see reports of how the Tekin does running completely sensorless. Or like I said it can wait until the MM Pro comes out for a more fair comparison.

Lighten up Francis.

You ask for people's opinions on the system and then when people give you their opinions, you find some reason to challenge their opinions. Like I said, if you are happy with the MMM then by all means keep using it. It gets the job done. No one is putting the Tekin system on God like status, nor is anyone bashing the MMM. Different strokes for different folks. It ain't perfect, but based on owing both systems, I think the Tekin has upped the bar. If you feel differently, then keep running the MMM.

However, as someone who has owned about 7 MMM and 8 different Neu motors over the past year that I have used for racing, I think I am qualified to make a unbiased judgement on the performance of the systems in the real world. I lost count of the thousands I spend each year screwing around with different crap to see what works and doesn't. I don't mind giving my unbiased opinion as I have no horse in the race. It either works or it doesn't.

Do I have a data logger hooked up? Nope, but I don't think one is needed when I raced one weekend with a Neu 1515 2.5d/MMM in my Truggy and then race again the following weekend and the only thing that changes is the ESC/Motor - same exact track layout, same batteries, same car, same bad driving. Measuring what I took out of a full charged pack vs what I put back after a qualifier gives me a fairly accurate measure as to the efficiency of the system in the real world. Particularly when I do this over three timed qualifiers and and a main. I hardly think this is the same as a 13 year claiming thier VXL hit 80 with a 7 cell nimh pack.

Will the rx8 hold up to the season of racing? I don't know, but I am about to find out. However, given the performance after a weekend of racing the snot out of it, I am confident it will.

[TexasSP]

You have thoroughly proven my point. Your claims are nothing more than opinion with no fact to prove them. Data logging is the only way you can prove one motor is as, more, or less efficient than any other. Anything else is speculation and nothing more.

Also make note that nowhere in this thread have I asked for anyone's opinion.

Originally Posted by TexasSP

You have thoroughly proven my point. Your claims are nothing more than opinion with no fact to prove them. Data logging is the only way you can prove one motor is as, more, or less efficient than any other. Anything else is speculation and nothing more.

Also make note that nowhere in this thread have I asked for anyone's opinion.

By posting on the thread and responding to posts, you are asking for opinions. Look, keep running your MMM. That simple. Some of us like the rx8so far, others may not find the price premium worth it. Each to their own. No need for you to be all defensive. I am providing feedback as an owner of both systems, you can choose to take it or leave it. No skin off my back.

If you want to hook up a data logger while racing/bashing to get the readings, then by all means do it. If I race a 5 minute qualifier on multiple occassions and nothing changed except the esc/motor and measure what goes back in a fully charged pack along with motor/batt/esc temps, it is close enough in my book. It is about as a controlled environment anyone is going to get. I don't get hung up on analysis paralysis. The differences are neglible as far as runtime in my experience between the two systems so far. But if you want down to the decimal point readings, knock yourself out and I would love to see the data when you are done.

[lincpimp]

Just to clear up some info on Neu motors.

The older style motors had a one piece front endbell/can with a pressed in rear plate. About 1-1.5yrs ago they started using small screws to retain the rear endbell.

The newest batch of Neu motors appear to have a threaded on front endbell with small set screws capturing it, and a threaded or pressed in rear endbell with small set screws capturing that also. I have seen this in both finned and smooth motors. I can post a pic of a pair of 1521 1y finned motors that are both styles if desired.

I personally feel that the one piece can/bell motor will be superior, but what do I know...

Plan to run one of the 1521 motors in my lst and the other in the muggy. Both 6s with MMMs and geared similar. We will see which motor fails first!

[hootie7159]

Alcadema...I meant that you don't haveto spend $400+ for a MMM and a genuine NEU combo .... The $250 MMM combo CC/ NEU motor works just fine ESP for a basher...so there is no real need to buy a genuine NEU AND a MMM ... but I now realize you will be running 6s may be a little too hot for the 2200kv CCNEU...that's all:) but like I said I have both and love both...kinda like a Mormon husband with 2 wives, one for cooking and the other for cleaning LOL. ..... Just making jokes and I don't mean to offend anyone on here....:)

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by Edumakated

By posting on the thread and responding to posts, you are asking for opinions. Look, keep running your MMM. That simple. Some of us like the rx8so far, others may not find the price premium worth it. Each to their own. No need for you to be all defensive. I am providing feedback as an owner of both systems, you can choose to take it or leave it. No skin off my back.

If you want to hook up a data logger while racing/bashing to get the readings, then by all means do it. If I race a 5 minute qualifier on multiple occassions and nothing changed except the esc/motor and measure what goes back in a fully charged pack along with motor/batt/esc temps, it is close enough in my book. It is about as a controlled environment anyone is going to get. I don't get hung up on analysis paralysis. The differences are neglible as far as runtime in my experience between the two systems so far. But if you want down to the decimal point readings, knock yourself out and I would love to see the data when you are done.

You have some interesting logic I must say. It seems to me you are the one getting worked up yet you keep accusing me of this I don't know why. I am sorry you do not like that I have an opinion that differs from yours but that is hardly cause for me to get "worked up" as you suggest.

My point is that you made a claim that somehow the tekin motors where more efficient than the neu motors with no real world data to back that up. I made no assumption that either was more or less efficient than the other. So many factors play into why a given motor pulls more mah in a given period than just the mah factor alone. How much of that power drain was used and how much disspated as heat? What wattage was each individual motor putting out? So on and so forth....

You keep wanting to put me in some little box as holding the MMM up over the Tekin when I have stated multiple times this is not the case. I have nothing against Tekin, I like Tekin, they have nice features, I even own one of their ESC's.

The real deal is that you made a claim and laid the burden of proof upon yourself. I would ask for proof from anyone I know, even family.

Please understand this is a forum and I hold no anamosity towards you or any other who disagrees with me. Nothing on RCM or any other forum raises my blood pressure. I take it all with a grain of salt.

I understand that written word on forums and otherwise can be taken out of context very quickly.

My apologies if I have upset or insulted you in anyway.

If you're racing the tekin is the best as of right now.


The braking smoothness is way way above any castle/neu combo. As well the motors have so little magnetic drag that my buggy freewheels for way longer and this helps a ton in the corners.

I cant talk for other people

But I for one dont have the money for a data logger. Send one my way and I will get your data. But I do not have extra money for stuff like, id much rather have tires, money for entry fee's, ETC...

I dont really know how people are complaining about a little extra cost. Tekin has always costed more, and unlike most manufactures (cough max amps cough) there is a good reason to it. There stuff is high quality, and well tested before it comes out. Some like there stuff, some dont. Because a ESC has solder posts put your own bullets on if you want them. For most of the people we dont want them! Direct solder is alot cleaner and more simple IMO. To swap motors or anything plug in the soldering iron, if you have a Hakko or a decent iron it heats up in like a min or 2 and unsolder the wires. I dont really see how thats a big deal? Bullets are cool, but its just more to go wrong, maybe they never will, but still I know my soldering wont fail on me. Hasn't yet anyhow...

Im not hating on castle. And have nothing against them (vice versa of Texas) If I was going to be bashing and pounding the crap out of my car id probably run a MMM. There is no reason to run anything really, running a Tekin to bash is fine with me, but in that case I dont see the extra spent money befitting much other then it looks sick. CC has great customer service, and same with Tekin. Both are great systems, so dont get me wrong.

Like it was said, I dont need a data logger to tell whats what. Your lap times show whats going on, im NOT saying necessarily faster lap times, and you will win more races, im saying overall, consistency, how easily the car drives, a smooth power-band, smooth brakes ETC. When I come in after a 10 min run or however long I ran my charger will consistently put X amount of mah into a pack. While its NOT the most accurate way, and I guess I cant really prove to guys like you with out data, I personally know what I like and want to run. And I continue to race. If you dont want to believe what people are saying off of there opinion I dont really care. Im sure soon enough there will be data to back everything up. But it wont be me, with this economy I hardly have money to race anymore =(

On the NEU subject, I dont care about the holes or any of that really. A CC NEU, or a real NEU there amazing motors, and I dont have anything to complain about. But Tekin came in and set the new standards. I know most people here hate sensored, but I remember CC saying sensored was inferior and stuff like that, and then they make a sensored MM pro? WTF? What happened to all that was said about that?


Im not here to piss anyone off. Not here to start a war. Just throwing my point of view up here

[jhautz]

I cant belive I just read this whole thread. 12 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

[George16]

I had fun reading this thread since our ship is just floating around somewhere in the Pacific Ocean . What a great way to start my Saturday morning especially since we have satellite internet .

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by BlackedOutREVO

Im not hating on castle. And have nothing against them (vice versa of Texas)

Our schools are failing us truly. Please learn to read before posting.

I own a tekin controller, I like the tekin controller. No where in this thread am I bashing tekin.

My point was there were a lot of bold claims with no data to back them up.

[Pdelcast]

Originally Posted by BlackedOutREVO

I know most people here hate sensored, but I remember CC saying sensored was inferior and stuff like that, and then they make a sensored MM pro? WTF? What happened to all that was said about that?

Well, I'll explain why the MM Pro has sensors.

There is a governing body out there for racing (ROAR) that approved a particular motor (and ONLY that motor) for racing. The rules were written in such a way that only a particular design of motor was allowed for racing in four of the five brushless classes for 1/10th scale.

The motor that ROAR approved was poorly designed, performed horribly, generated very very little torque, had huge inductance, a rotor that was WAY too small, and a backiron design that ran in saturation ALL THE TIME.

The motor is so bad, in fact, that the back-EMF is tainted by the saturation levels on the iron, by the tiny rotor, and the lack of generated torque.

Because the back-EMF is so poor, it is difficult to start reliably with a sensorless controller. We have done a pretty good job, but racers wanted a little less startup hesitation on ROAR motors. So we added sensors to the MM Pro.

THEN, another company started using the sensors to push timing WAY up on those poorly designed motors. Because the motors had WAY too much inductance, pushing timing way up helped the poor little motors generate a little more torque, and pushed the Kv of the motors up. The timing was being pushed to a level that cannot be done without sensors (by using a software PLL --) And even though many of us complained to ROAR that this would start a war that would force those who race to use "sacrificial" motors (motors that would last only a few runs before dying,) ROAR decided that there were already so many people racing in these classes that it would be detrimental to change the rules.

So, the answer is: We added sensors to the MM Pro so that we could run a badly designed motor and push those badly designed motors to the destruction point -- all in the name of keeping racing "fair and level..."

And BTW, in our Modified motors and 1/8th scale motors (which ROAR now allows pretty much anything that fits in the right case size) you won't be seeing any sensors. The only motor that is so bad that it NEEDS sensors is the ROAR stock and super stock motors....